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Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 3 2008, 08:17 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *

LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

This began in 2004, when Henry "HANK" Paulson, who I believe you admire, was still CEO of Goldman-Sachs ...


He and his CORPORATE BREATHEN went to the SEC and got "permission" to LOOT the reserves of their banks ....

They then proceeded to "lose" BILLIONS of dollars of those reserves ....

The BILLIONS just went
POOF!, at least according to you and tomhye in here ....

Just an accident of fate, or something ....

So now, we American citizens have to bail them out ....

And we are asking in here how that constitutes justice ...

FOR US ...


And so ...

Does the concept of "nonperforming loan" mean anything to you?

Because unless you don't understand the concept, you cannot even begin to understand what is going on these days.

Oh the Wall Street bankers deserve all kinds of blame.

But I think they deserve it for something besides what you have in mind, of course there is always the possibility that I am misunderstanding you.

And unfortunately we just aren't going to be able to find all of that money that was "lost" salted away in these guys' overseas accounts.

Things would be so much simpler if the world worked that way, but...



It is said, in public speaking circles, anyway, that there are FIVE THINGS that you should tell people, when you are going to tell them something, and that is WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, and WHERE .....

And then they say, the pundits, that is, that you should tell them what you are going to tell them, and then you should actually tell them, and you should conclude by telling them what it was that you told them ...

And in here, thankfully and fortunately for all of us through the miracle of this forum, we have all of that stuff right above here in this little window, where I, the PROTAGONIST, am seen to speak, and then, the ANTAGONIST, our own Arneoker, is seen to speak in response, where he asks me POINT-BLANK, to wit:

Does the concept of "nonperforming loan" mean anything to you?

end quotes

To which I reply, OF COURSE, Arneoker ....

I have heard that term used as an excuse for the FINANCIAL TURMOIL that racks our nation right now ....

WHAT OF IT?

There is where we are in here right now, folks ....

Waiting on Arneoker to come in here and answer that question for us ....

And in the meantime .....

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 01:43 PM) *
And in here, thankfully and fortunately for all of us through the miracle of this forum, we have all of that stuff right above here in this little window, where I, the PROTAGONIST, am seen to speak, and then, the ANTAGONIST, our own Arneoker, is seen to speak in response, where he asks me POINT-BLANK, to wit:

Does the concept of "nonperforming loan" mean anything to you?

Arneoker .....

WHAT does the concept of "non-performing loan" mean to you?

Absent that data, our at-home audience is likely to be quite stumped in here as to what position you are really arguing ....

And so ....
Livyjr
In many ways, this is like a modern-day version of Cicero prosecuting Verres for alleged crimes Verres committed while governor of Sicily ....

Central casting has chosen to portray me in the role of the young and inexperienced but idealistic Cicero, jut in from the countryside at Arpimum with hay and straw still in his ears ....

Central casting, in their infinite and illimitable wisdom, has chosen to cast our own Arneoker as THE GREAT HORTENSIUS, the greatest orator in Rome .....

A FORMIDABLE OPPONENT, folks ....

The thought of going up against him almost fills me with a terror that is quite overwhelming in its palpability ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 01:51 PM) *
The thought of going up against him almost fills me with a terror that is quite overwhelming in its palpability ....

ALMOST, however, is not all the way there ....

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *
LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

This began in 2004, when Henry "HANK" Paulson, who I believe you admire, was still CEO of Goldman-Sachs ...


He and his CORPORATE BREATHEN went to the SEC and got "permission" to LOOT the reserves of their banks ....

They then proceeded to "lose" BILLIONS of dollars of those reserves ....

The BILLIONS just went
POOF!, at least according to you and tomhye in here ....

Just an accident of fate, or something ....

So now, we American citizens have to bail them out ....

And we are asking in here how that constitutes justice ...

FOR US ...


And so ...

QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 3 2008, 08:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Dec 3 2008, 05:49 PM) *

The bottom line is that if your money is being used by the government to reward the behavior of fat cats and fools, you should be able to criticize the transaction.

Of course you should.

You should also be able to point out that there seem to be a scarcity of viable alternatives (if you happen to believe that).

You should be able to offer such opinions, and others, while getting the presumption from those who disagree with you that you aren't an idiot, crazy, or tolerant of grand larceny or other crimes.

I note that you don't describe the bailout as "looting" yourself.

Would that because you like or don't care about looting?

Of course not!

Of course some do think the bailouts constitute looting, which is actually fine in my book, as long as they don't say that someone's holding of a different opinion means that they favor or are tolerant of looting.



LOOTING ....

What is LOOTING, folks?

That is really where winning or losing this contest with the formidable Arneoker as the FORMIDABLE HORTENSIUS in here really does hang ....

IF THERE IS NO LOOTING, THEN Arneoker HAS WON ....

And so ....

WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *
LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 3 2008, 08:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Dec 3 2008, 05:49 PM) *

The bottom line is that if your money is being used by the government to reward the behavior of fat cats and fools, you should be able to criticize the transaction.

I note that you don't describe the bailout as "looting" yourself.

Would that because you like or don't care about looting?

Of course not!



QUOTE(Frenchy @ Dec 3 2008 @ 07:47 AM)
I don't need you speaking for me Liv, so please cease and desist.

And since Frenchy definitely does not need me to speak for him in here, I certainly will have the outright courtesy to cease and desist from doing so ....

I would, however, like to hear him speak for himself with respect to what Arneoker has him saying here ....

So, help us out, Frenchy, if you can ....

Do you or do you not care about the LOOTING of OUR treasury that is going on now?

And so ...
Arneoker
This is what "nonpeforming loan" means to me.

It means a loan that the borrower is very likely not going to repay, or at least not repay a substantial amount of the principal.

An example of that would be the mortgage my ex-neighbors received, the ones who had to move out because their house was foreclosed upon.

Why did I ask that question in the first place? It is because I believe that, in a nutshell, "nonperforming loans" are the key to the current credit crisis. All these fancy credit derivatives were involved as well, but they are basically...derivative of the the phenonemon of "nonperforming loans". And many of those loans were mortgages foolishly given to people like my ex-neighbors. The mortgage makers were foolishly facilitated by greedy Wall Street executives.

And there is more to the story, such as polticians in DC who foolishly, corruptly and/or in craven service to economically powerful elites, such as Wall Street, who facilitated Wall Street. (And there is the Fed who kept filling up the punch bowl that kept the party going.)

Lots of reasons to be angry.

But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"? I really don't see it. In fact my guess is that very few actual crimes (according to current law, which is of course what we need to know to determine that a crime was committed) were committed. Perhaps some certifiable fraud was committed, and such fraud should be dealt with vigorously and harshly by the authorities. But I think most of it was a lot of people who just wanted to believe that dubious loans were good investments, or people seeing that they could legally get away with doing deals that were hardly very transparent.

(Of course it was all a lot more complex than that, but I believe that is the essence of the story.)
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *
LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

BUT IS IT, really?

And here, of course, I am anticipating my opponent, anticipating the path of attack that he is most likely to take in here ....

The POOH-POOHING ....

"But members of the jury, surely you do not believe that my clients were actually engaged in LOOTING, do you?"

"But seriously, ladies and gentlemen!"

"IT WAS NOT LOOTING, IT WAS JUST 'NON-PERFORMING' LOANS IS ALL!"

"MY CLIENTS ARE INNOCENT OF THE CHARGES OF LOOTING!"

At which time, of course, I jump to my feet and interject, "BUT ARE THEY INNOCENT?"

At which time the members of the jury again face me ....

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:12 PM) *
But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"?

And didn't I just say that Arneoker was FORMIDABLE in here?

By the way, Arneoker, do you think that this is DIALECTIC?

Or not even close?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *
LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:12 PM) *
But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"?

Well ....

Look at this, folks ....

We're not even one page in, and already we are right on down to BRASS TACKS ....

HOW MUCH OF THE PROBLEM COULD BE ATTRIBUTED TO "LOOTING", folks?

Doesn't it depend on what LOOTING really is?

And so ...
Arneoker
Livyjr, you suggested to me that I was "obtuse" for asking if you thought the bailout constituted looting. In this thread you refer to the "looting" of our Treasury. Is there some kind of "looting" of the Treasury outside of the bail out? Could you clarify whether you think that bailout constitutes the looting, some of the looting, or none of the looting?
Snuffysmith
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 08:12 PM) *
This is what "nonpeforming loan" means to me.

It means a loan that the borrower is very likely not going to repay, or at least not repay a substantial amount of the principal.

An example of that would be the mortgage my ex-neighbors received, the ones who had to move out because their house was foreclosed upon.

Why did I ask that question in the first place? It is because I believe that, in a nutshell, "nonperforming loans" are the key to the current credit crisis. All these fancy credit derivatives were involved as well, but they are basically...derivative of the the phenonemon of "nonperforming loans". And many of those loans were mortgages foolishly given to people like my ex-neighbors. The mortgage makers were foolishly facilitated by greedy Wall Street executives.

And there is more to the story, such as polticians in DC who foolishly, corruptly and/or in craven service to economically powerful elites, such as Wall Street, who facilitated Wall Street. (And there is the Fed who kept filling up the punch bowl that kept the party going.)

Lots of reasons to be angry.

But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"? I really don't see it. In fact my guess is that very few actual crimes (according to current law, which is of course what we need to know to determine that a crime was committed) were committed. Perhaps some certifiable fraud was committed, and such fraud should be dealt with vigorously by the authorities. But I think most of it was a lot of people who just wanted to believe that dubious loans were good investments, or people seeing that they could legally get away with doing deals that were hardly very transparent.

(Of course it was all a lot more complex than that, but I believe that is the essence of the story.)


Arne
The Derivatives are the very heart of the problem,(a multi trillion dollar problem) moreso than the nonperforming loans. Infact, the derivatives are much worse - they are out and out a form of gambling which Greenspan said way back when, didn't need to be regulated, and Cox, SEC Chairman was too lazy to think about protecting investors in running the SEC. You want to know where the bailouts and the $2 trillion in Federal Reserve funds are going? They are going to pay off the counterparties in the derivatives nightmare.
This money is not going to mainstreet. It is going to the banksters and their cohorts. And Bernanke is now talking about making more money available to go out the door. There has been one rulemaking by the SEC or anyone else to prohibit the continued practice of derivatives and credit default swaps.
jeffmoskin
There is a difference between ROBBERY when some poor SOB steals $20 from a 7/11 to feed his family (5 to 20) and LOOTING where a CEO transfers a few million to his own pocket (firing with a golden parachute).
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 02:19 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 3 2008, 06:08 PM) *

LOOTING is what you do when you EMPTY out the reserves of your bank ....

QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:12 PM) *
But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"?

HOW MUCH OF THE PROBLEM COULD BE ATTRIBUTED TO "LOOTING", folks?

Doesn't it depend on what LOOTING really is?

And so ...



I don't know how Arneoker sees it, folks ....

But I try to make it a rule, and not an exception, to not ask questions that I already have not thought of answers for, based on facts and reality, and not such thin stuff as "American DREAMS" .....

Thus, I have spent some considerable time between yesterday and right now researching this issue of LOOTING ....

Which started with this dictionary definition, to wit:

LOOT: goods taken as booty by a victorious army from a sacked city, enemy forces, etc.;

Anything unlawfully taken or seized, AS BY A BURGLER, etc.;

To plunder, as a conquered city;

Pillage;

To carry off as plunder;

To engage in plundering ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:20 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 08:12 PM) *
This is what "nonpeforming loan" means to me.

It means a loan that the borrower is very likely not going to repay, or at least not repay a substantial amount of the principal.

An example of that would be the mortgage my ex-neighbors received, the ones who had to move out because their house was foreclosed upon.

Why did I ask that question in the first place? It is because I believe that, in a nutshell, "nonperforming loans" are the key to the current credit crisis. All these fancy credit derivatives were involved as well, but they are basically...derivative of the the phenonemon of "nonperforming loans". And many of those loans were mortgages foolishly given to people like my ex-neighbors. The mortgage makers were foolishly facilitated by greedy Wall Street executives.

And there is more to the story, such as polticians in DC who foolishly, corruptly and/or in craven service to economically powerful elites, such as Wall Street, who facilitated Wall Street. (And there is the Fed who kept filling up the punch bowl that kept the party going.)

Lots of reasons to be angry.

But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"? I really don't see it. In fact my guess is that very few actual crimes (according to current law, which is of course what we need to know to determine that a crime was committed) were committed. Perhaps some certifiable fraud was committed, and such fraud should be dealt with vigorously by the authorities. But I think most of it was a lot of people who just wanted to believe that dubious loans were good investments, or people seeing that they could legally get away with doing deals that were hardly very transparent.

(Of course it was all a lot more complex than that, but I believe that is the essence of the story.)


Arne
The Derivatives are the very heart of the problem,(a multi trillion dollar problem) moreso than the nonperforming loans. Infact, the derivatives are much worse - they are out and out a form of gambling which Greenspan said way back when, didn't need to be regulated, and Cox, SEC Chairman was too lazy to think about protecting investors in running the SEC. You want to know where the bailouts and the $2 trillion in Federal Reserve funds are going? They are going to pay off the counterparties in the derivatives nightmare.
This money is not going to mainstreet. It is going to the banksters and their cohorts. And Bernanke is now talking about making more money available to go out the door. There has been one rulemaking by the SEC or anyone else to prohibit the continued practice of derivatives and credit default swaps.

What do the dubious derivatives insure? Basically dodgy loans, or credit instruments based on dodgy loans. I'm not really quarreling with you but I think this is one of the cases where it is how you look at it.

I think that Wall Street developed instruments that took leveraging to an extreme and magnified the dangerous nature of a lot of these loans. It all seemed great, getting the maximum out of every dollar invested, as long as nothing went wrong. But nobody wanted to look at risk. And once things started to go wrong the derivatives and hyper-leveraging magnified the disaster.

Of course lack of oversight was key to the problem, and correcting that will be key to the long-term solution. But to use one of Tomyhe's metaphors right now we have a fire, and we need to put out that fire.
Snuffysmith
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 08:29 PM) *
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:20 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 08:12 PM) *
This is what "nonpeforming loan" means to me.

It means a loan that the borrower is very likely not going to repay, or at least not repay a substantial amount of the principal.

An example of that would be the mortgage my ex-neighbors received, the ones who had to move out because their house was foreclosed upon.

Why did I ask that question in the first place? It is because I believe that, in a nutshell, "nonperforming loans" are the key to the current credit crisis. All these fancy credit derivatives were involved as well, but they are basically...derivative of the the phenonemon of "nonperforming loans". And many of those loans were mortgages foolishly given to people like my ex-neighbors. The mortgage makers were foolishly facilitated by greedy Wall Street executives.

And there is more to the story, such as polticians in DC who foolishly, corruptly and/or in craven service to economically powerful elites, such as Wall Street, who facilitated Wall Street. (And there is the Fed who kept filling up the punch bowl that kept the party going.)

Lots of reasons to be angry.

But was most of the problem what one could call "looting"? I really don't see it. In fact my guess is that very few actual crimes (according to current law, which is of course what we need to know to determine that a crime was committed) were committed. Perhaps some certifiable fraud was committed, and such fraud should be dealt with vigorously by the authorities. But I think most of it was a lot of people who just wanted to believe that dubious loans were good investments, or people seeing that they could legally get away with doing deals that were hardly very transparent.

(Of course it was all a lot more complex than that, but I believe that is the essence of the story.)


Arne
The Derivatives are the very heart of the problem,(a multi trillion dollar problem) moreso than the nonperforming loans. Infact, the derivatives are much worse - they are out and out a form of gambling which Greenspan said way back when, didn't need to be regulated, and Cox, SEC Chairman was too lazy to think about protecting investors in running the SEC. You want to know where the bailouts and the $2 trillion in Federal Reserve funds are going? They are going to pay off the counterparties in the derivatives nightmare.
This money is not going to mainstreet. It is going to the banksters and their cohorts. And Bernanke is now talking about making more money available to go out the door. There has been one rulemaking by the SEC or anyone else to prohibit the continued practice of derivatives and credit default swaps.

What do the dubious derivatives insure? Basically dodgy loans, or credit instruments based on dodgy loans. I'm not really quarreling with you but I think this is one of the cases where it is how you look at it.

I think that Wall Street developed instruments that took leveraging to an extreme and magnified the dangerous nature of a lot of these loans. It all seemed great, getting the maximum out of every dollar invested, as long as nothing went wrong. But nobody wanted to look at risk. And once things started to go wrong the derivatives and hyper-leveraging magnified the disaster.

Of course lack of oversight was key to the problem, and correcting that will be key to the long-term solution. But to use one of Tomyhe's metaphors right now we have a fire, and we need to put out that fire.


And given the fire, the Bush Administration has done nothing to put it out regulatory wise except to spend the bailout and give it to the banksters to pay off the cdos that were leveraged 200 times over and secutirized and sold abroad.
Livyjr
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Dec 4 2008, 02:20 PM) *
There is a difference between ROBBERY when some poor SOB steals $20 from a 7/11 to feed his family (5 to 20) and LOOTING where a CEO transfers a few million to his own pocket (firing with a golden parachute).

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 02:27 PM) *
LOOT: goods taken as booty by a victorious army from a sacked city, enemy forces, etc.;

Anything unlawfully taken or seized, AS BY A BURGLER, etc.;

To plunder, as a conquered city;

Pillage;

To carry off as plunder;

To engage in plundering ...

Now, I have to say that I am coming down on the side of jeffmoskin here, which is cool, since I have been cast in the role of PROSECUTION in here ....

As a prosecutor in here, I stand on the side of the PEOPLE ....

And jeffmoskin has expressed what I consider to be a valid opinion as one of the PEOPLE ...

So I would be foolish to stand in opposition to jeffmoskin in here, as I see it ....

Especially as he has provided us all with a segue ....

Never pass by a segue is my thought in here this afternoon ....

And so ...
Snuffysmith
I have a whole thread on what's wrong with the bailout. And do I think its looting: well tell me what you think Michael Hudson thinks it is:

]Locking in the Loot at the Reagan Library [/b]

[b]Paulson's Cascade of Lies [/b]
By MICHAEL HUDSON

On Thursday, November 20, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson presented, even by his own lamentably low standards, an amazingly deceptive speech at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. In its false framing of Washington’s financial giveaway to Wall Street it rivaled some of the outstanding fables created by the Master Imagineer himself, for whom the library is named.

What prompted the speech seems have been Congressional criticism of Mr. Paulson’s bait-and-switch transfer of public funds to Wall Street, and the Federal Reserve’s transfer of an amount twice as high as Congress’s $700 billion. His most urgent aim was to ward off accusations that the Treasury and Federal Reserve have acted illegally. “Federal law, and in particular the Anti-Deficiency Act, prohibits Treasury from spending money, lending money, and guaranteeing or buying assets without Congressional approval. The Federal Reserve can and does lend on a secured basis, but only if it expects not to realize losses.” (Italics added.)

But Congress did not approve the Treasury’s $250 billion of “preferred” stock investments in Wall Street banks. The happy recipients, their stockholders and officers evidently worried precisely that this “investment” would end up taking losses. That is why the Treasury stands in back of bona fide creditors. That is why “preferred” stock was preferred by existing stockholders to loans and guarantees (which have priority in case of bankruptcy), not to mention the conditions that Congress thought it had laid down calling for these institutions to renegotiate mortgages to bring them in line with the debtor’s ability to pay.

The Fed has refused to let Congress know any details – any details at all – about its cash-for-trash swaps with these institutions. This is what concerns Congress, and what has prompted reporters at Bloomberg to bring a lawsuit in order to discover and publicize the details. It is not hard to see why this curiosity exists. The only reasonable explanation as to why investment banks, American International Group (A.I.G.) and commercial banks apparently headed by Citibank (whose shares plunged yet another 26 per cent on Thursday) have turned over a trillion dollars worth of illiquid mortgage securities, junk bonds and who knows what other junk to the Fed is to avoid taking a loss on these bad loans and investments. As Mr. Paulson explained matters, “the Federal Reserve has statutory authority to lend against a pool of mortgage loans on a fully secured basis. The Fed was able to assist the JPMorgan purchase because they believed that there was a reasonable prospect of avoiding losses.”

What time frame are we talking about here? Evidently one in which Mr. Paulson will have left the administration, sticking his successor with the losses and, presumably, the blame.

Everything seems to have been unexpected to Mr. Paulson – as if ignorance is a defense. “When I came to Washington in 2006,” he reminisced, “markets were benign.” We were still in Alan Greenspan’s idea that inflating asset prices on credit constitutes “wealth creation.” At that time I myself was only one of many who warned that the real estate market had come to rest on a foundation of junk mortgage lending. Every banker with whom I spoke at the time knew this. But most were still seeking to make hay while the making was good, and it was still quite good – for the banks, that is. Matters were not benign for the increasingly debt-ridden U.S. economy, but at least they were rosy for Wall Street. Bank executives were paying themselves enormous salaries and even larger stock options. Meanwhile, the smarter money managers were beginning to shift their funds out of the U.S. economy in a wave of capital flight of a magnitude not seen since Russia in the mid-1990s.

Acting as if all this could not have been foreseen, Mr. Paulson assured his mistake-friendly audience, “There was no playbook for responding to a once or twice in a hundred year event.” A kind of random historical earthquake seems to have been at work, a financial San Andreas fault. Mr. Paulson then trivialized this, however, with the euphemism “housing correction.”

The key is, what is to be corrected? Is it not the financial market itself?

Mr. Paulson then set about dissembling the character of the U.S. and global financial system. “Our financial system,” he claimed, “is built on the hard work of our citizens; it is built on the savings of our citizens.”

This is where he seeks to spread the disinformation about the explosion of debt that now burdens the U.S. economy, which is the result of autonomous credit-creation by the commercial banking system and has nothing to do with the savings habits of “our citizens”. The basic financial principle of modern banking is that “loans create deposits.” The bank loan comes first – then the deposit or “saving.”

Here’s how it works. A bank’s marketing department seeks to drum up customers for debt. A borrower will go into a bank and sign a promissory note, and the bank then creates a checking account in the amount that is stipulated. The note calls for a specific rate of interest to be paid – a rate much higher than that which the bank can borrow from the Federal Reserve or in the money market in general. One benchmark global rate to bankers is the London Interbank Borrowing Overnight Rate (LIBOR), and the other is the Federal Reserve’s discount rate to banks. (Japanese banks also provided loans to large financial institutions at under 1% per year, spurring the international “carry trade,” borrowing cheap in yen and then converting the funds into other currencies and lending at a higher rate.)

None of this involves saving. It involves credit creation in which banks have a legal monopoly, with funding monetized by the U.S, Japanese and other major foreign central banks. This free credit creation is at the root of the problem, not the natural growth of savings.

What have banks done with this credit-creating privilege? Nearly all their loans have been to enable buyers to purchase assets (real estate, stocks and bonds or entire companies) already in place, or to enable hedge funds to play the mathematical games that have come to characterize today’s casino capitalism. Mr. Paulson depicts the resulting financial system as being essential for the good functioning of “Main Street.” But surely he must know some lawyer who might explain to him that only very, very wealthy speculators are allowed to play the hedge fund game of financial derivatives that lies at the heart of today’s financial breakdown and negative equity for banks that have made bad gambles. The legal reality is that in order to invest in hedge funds and similar casino capitalism gambles (or in Broadway plays and other high-risk ventures, for that matter), prospective financiers must sign releases attesting to the fact that they can afford to lose their money.

“If the financial system were allowed to collapse,” Mr. Paulson warned, “it is the American people who would pay the price. This has never been just about the banks; it has always been about continued prosperity and opportunity for all Americans.” Not really. Wall Street is hardly so altruistic. It has increasingly made its money off Americans by engaging in increasingly predatory, extractive lending to the economy. That is what has caused the U.S. debt burden to soar so far ahead of the ability of debtors to pay. It also is what is now diverting spending away from consumption and (for companies) new capital investment to pay creditors.

Not content with misrepresenting how the U.S. economy works, Mr. Paulson then drew a picture of the global economy that also is a travesty. “The world was awash in money looking for higher return,” he explained, “and much of this money was invested in U.S. assets.”

Not exactly. The world economy has been awash in the U.S. payments deficit, which has swollen the reserves of central banks in the creditor nations from Asia to Western Europe. These central banks have recycled $4 trillion of their dollar inflows to the United States under dollar hegemony. Rather than seeking a “higher return,” central banks have found themselves obliged to invest in low-yielding U.S. Treasury securities, or somewhat higher Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac securities. These returns are much lower than U.S. investors have sought in buying up foreign companies and their stocks, whose price appreciation far exceeded the rate that foreign economies were able to recoup on their dollar recycling to the United States.

Mr. Paulson wants above all to deter foreign economies from breaking away from this dysfunctional system. “The second important priority,” he explained to his Reagan Library audience, “must be continued reform of the International Financial Institutions like the World Bank and the IMF to allow for greater participation of developing nations.” The aim here is to make the financial sector’s lobbying control over the world’s financial system global. “A final reform priority must be consistent liberalization of policies on trade and investment, with an emphasis on avoiding new protectionist measures and achieving a breakthrough in the Doha round of global trade talk.”

“New protectionist measures”! Even as U.S. auto companies are advocating special subsidies for the U.S. auto industry in Detroit and pursuing beggar-my-neighbor financial policies (let foreign banks and economies absorb the financial loss from playing in the Wall Street casino), foreign countries are not to develop a financial system more highly regulated, an agriculture more aimed at feeding their own people. They are not to block capital outflows from the United States based on “free” credit creation to buy out the commanding heights of their economies as the IMF imposes austerity plans and forced privatization sell-offs on Third World and post-Soviet countries, while cutting taxes at home in the face of an escalating U.S. trade deficit and rising foreign military spending.

Mr. Paulson’s speech looks like a major salvo in the Bush Administration’s attempt to make both the Wall Street bailout and the U.S. predatory finance irreversible, while the government replaces public debt (Treasury bonds) for Wall Street’s bad gambles. His errors are calculated to misinform, as are most lobbying efforts by the banking and financial sector. One can only hope that Congress will question his testimony that has repeatedly followed this line with more acumen than prompted its earlier acceptance of the Treasury’s bailout act. It’s time to clean up this act.

PS: As I watched Citibank's stock (C ) take yet another plunge of 10 per cent in the firsthour of Thursday morning, my wife showed me something that a Citibank advertiser was handing out to students at New York University yesterday afternoon: A flyer begging them to put their money in at 3.10 per cent per year. (Vanguard's Treasury-money market fund offers under 1 per cent at present.) I told Grace that our net worth was higher than Citibank's, but I'm not able to draw down a $10 million a year salary like their jokers do.

The Citibank handout (when have you ever heard of street hawkers for banks says, "You'll have the safety of FDIC insurance and your CD's term is just 6 months. So you can keep your money secure at a great rate. ...Citi never sleeps."

Citi’s stock has fallen 84 per cent this year, and the company is on the rocks. I'd be sleepless too, if I were them!

Michael Hudson is a former Wall Street economist. A Distinguished Research Professor at University of Missouri, Kansas City (UMKC), he is the author of many books, including Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire (new ed., Pluto Press, 2002) He can be reached via his website, mh@michael-hudson.com
Snuffysmith
The Great Depression of the 21st Century: Collapse of the Real Economy - by Michel Chossudovsky - 2008-11-15 The proposed bank "bailout" under the so-called Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) is not a "solution" to the crisis but the "cause" of further collapse.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 02:27 PM) *
LOOT: goods taken as booty by a victorious army from a sacked city, enemy forces, etc.;

Anything unlawfully taken or seized, AS BY A BURGLER, etc.;

To plunder, as a conquered city;

Pillage;

To carry off as plunder;

To engage in plundering ...

- Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary

And while these other conversations are taking place in here around me, I am going to continue on with WORDS ....

DEFINITIONS ....

I know DEFINITIONS drive the conservatives crazy up my way, here ....

They hate it when I get out my dictionary, which in this case is the Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, as opposed to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary which I normally use ....

And so ....
Arneoker
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:32 PM) *
And given the fire, the Bush Administration has done nothing to put it out regulatory wise except to spend the bailout and give it to the banksters to pay off the cdos that were leveraged 200 times over and secutirized and sold abroad.

I see regulation as fire prevention and not so much as fire extinguishing. The bailouts, or whatever program we try and whatever we want to call out, need to be structured to be effective, provide the most bang for buck spent, and avoid providing preverse incentives to behave foolishly in the future. (In other words, avoid "moral hazard.")

Obama is going to have to do the work on regulation, I would not expect much from Bush other than extracting oversight provisions on any of his bailout efforts.
Snuffysmith
USA: Banking Executives or Bandits? - by Santiago Brugal Almanza - 2008-12-03
Snuffysmith
Government bailout hits $8.5 trillion- by Kathleen Pender - 2008-12-01
Snuffysmith
And just to put the bailout in perspective:

Bailout costs more than Marshall Plan, Louisiana Purchase, moonshot, S&L bailout, Korean War, New Deal, Iraq war, Vietnam war - by Barry Ritholtz - 2008-12-02
Arneoker
Snuffy, what is Huson's solution to the problem?
Snuffysmith

Economy: Obama chooses those who have a record of failureA European Viewpoint- by Damien Millet, Dr. Eric Toussaint - 2008-12-02
Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:36 PM) *
I have a whole thread on what's wrong with the bailout.

And do I think its looting:

The problem, Snuf, from my perspective, is that all of what is wrong with the BAIL-OUT, or LOOTING of OUR Treasury, is too big for one thread alone ....

It is like we need that to be the title of an ANTHOLOGY of threads in here ....

We need to specifically look at LOOTING to understand it better in the context of your thread, which is a companion to this one ....

You should post a link in here to your thread to make it easier for people to switch back and forth ...

And so ....
Snuffysmith
Want to talk about looting?

CEOs “cashed out” prior to economic crisis- by Tom Eley - 2008-12-01
Arneoker
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Want to talk about looting?

CEOs “cashed out” prior to economic crisis- by Tom Eley - 2008-12-01

If the point is that this compensation was obscene in view of the results these jokers have produced I would agree.

But personally I am interested in this. How did the total compensation received by the Wall Street executives compare with the money lost through the credit crisis?
Snuffysmith
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 08:44 PM) *
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:36 PM) *
I have a whole thread on what's wrong with the bailout.

And do I think its looting:

The problem, Snuf, from my perspective, is that all of what is wrong with the BAIL-OUT, or LOOTING of OUR Treasury, is too big for one thread alone ....

It is like we need that to be the title of an ANTHOLOGY of threads in here ....

We need to specifically look at LOOTING to understand it better in the context of your thread, which is a companion to this one ....

You should post a link in here to your thread to make it easier for people to switch back and forth ...

And so ....



You are right Liv. I like the idea of having a separate thread on the looting that has taken place. My thread covers the history of the bailout and what the feds have been doing and economic commentary on the effectiveness of the bailouts
See:
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...howtopic=100438

But when the general populace begins to realize that all this money has been poured down the drain and that there is no more money to fund health care, education, and other programs that are part and parcel of Obama's agenda, and bread lines start to form with a million unemployed, displaced homeowners, we may be looking at possible riots in the streets by next summer. And I don't mean to be a prognosticator of gloom and doom, but the predictive linquistics of the web bots on the internet are clearly pointing that way. Humint intelligence studies being done for the government seem to be indicating the likelihood of this by next summer. What can I say but what you conclude your thoughts with

And so
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:43 PM) *
Snuffy, what is Huson's solution to the problem?

SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM?

HUH?

SAY WHAT?

HAS THE PROBLEM EVEN BEEN DEFINED?

HOW CAN YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF RATIONAL SOLUTION TO AN UNDEFINED PROBLEM?

You assume that somehow, Arneoker, we can somehow miraculously get back to YESTERDAY by throwing TRILLIONS of dollars at this financial MESS we are now in, in some part because CORPORATE EXECUTIVES like Henry "HANK" Paulson LOOTED out the RESERVES from their banks, and then foolishly and RECKLESSLY gambled them away .....

I am saying that your yesterday is now long gone, Arneoker ....

The PROBLEM, Arneoker, is that your yesterday was nothing but a PIPE DREAM!

Over this last year, the CRAVEN U.S. CONGRESS and "BENNY BOUNCE" Bernanke and Henry "HANK" Paulson and OBAMA TREASURY SECRETARY CHOICE Timothy "BAGMAN" Geithner have HURLED SEVEN TRILLION of OUR DOLLARS at the WALL STREET "PROBLEM" of yours ....

AND THAT MONEY HAS DISAPPEARED!

POOF!

That is where $7 TRILLION of OUR money has gone, Arneoker ....

UP IN SMOKE!

Soooo ....

Was there LOOTING involved?

The operative question ....

And so ...
Arneoker
Once we have satisfactorily defined looting, does anyone think we should discuss the degree to which looting is the source of our current economic problems with the credit crisis, and the degree to which other factors are the source? Or should we simply assume that looting is the key source of the problem and dismiss the importance of alternative factors?

I have my own opinions on these questions, but I would be interested in how others think.
Snuffysmith
The Obama "Dream Team": Rubin-clones and political fakery - by Mike Whitney - 2008-11-30
Snuffysmith
Blaming "The Stupids" for the Financial Disaster Thomas Friedman's Sermon From The Mount of the NYT Op-Ed Page
by Danny Schechter

The Stupids are back.

You remember that fictional family who appear in series of books portrayed as incompetent to the point of confusing the most simple concepts and tasks The books were themselves denounced as irresponsible and inspired films which were dismissed as stupid plus.


But now the Stupids seems to have inspired a column by none other than Thomas Friedman of the not your father's New York Times. In a new column by this best selling hero of all serious media, we finally have a easy to read explanation of the financial crisis—namely the nerds on Wall Street were just plain dumb, or to use an overused term, "stupid."

The author of The World Is Flat, which one reader in Australia described as a book about "financial geniuses who were beating our olive trees into Lexuses!," calls the Wall Street wunderkinds:

"…overrated dopes who had no idea what they were selling, or greedy cynics who did know and turned a blind eye. But it wasn't only the bankers. This financial meltdown involved a broad national breakdown in personal responsibility, government regulation and financial ethics."

Tom then lays out who was complicit in all this---with nary a mention of the media that spent years hyping the "financial innovation on Wall Street." His answer: all of us. Everyone, he concludes, was involved so you can't really blame anyone, much less prosecute the fraudsters and, to use an FDRis, "banksters" who bamboozled the gullible and laughed all the way to the bank or their high priced condo—which ever came first.

"This financial meltdown involved a broad national breakdown in personal responsibility, government regulation and financial ethics., " he divines."

"So many people were in on it: People who had no business buying a home, with nothing down and nothing to pay for two years; people who had no business pushing such mortgages, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business bundling those loans into securities and selling them to third parties, as if they were AAA bonds, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business rating those loans as AAA, but made a fortunes doing so; and people who had no business buying those bonds and putting them on their balance sheets so they could earn a little better yield, but made fortunes doing so."

America: confess your guilt. Because as long we all did it, as long as unsophisticated borrowers and subprime victims are treated in Friedman speak as equally to blame with shrewd lenders pedaling products they knew were unaffordable, then no one can ever be held responsible. To him, the bankers and brokers were not driven by avarice and self-interest but by ignorance and idiocy. How patronizing!

He quotes a piece by writer Michael Lewis saluting former CitiBank analyst Meredith Whitney for warning the "Citi That never sleeps" that it was headed for the grave.

""This woman wasn't saying that Wall Street bankers were corrupt," he added. "She was saying they were STUPID "(caps mine). (That word again, finally used in polite company.) Her message was clear. If you want to know what these Wall Street firms are really worth, take a hard look at the crappy assets they bought with huge sums of borrowed money, and imagine what they'd fetch in a fire sale..."

Here's one more whistle blower who was only concerned about profitability, not the morality and criminality that the FBI says was pervasive in the mortgage industry. When you are complicit in enabling criminals, or profit from their dirty deeds, you become a criminal. Or so say any number of prosecutors who rountinely use RICO laws to jail criminal conspiracies.

A number of New York Times readers denounced this moral obtuseness and media simplification. Wrote Mary Lou from Springfield MO with great brevity:" "And still no suits not even fired, let alone in cuffs."

SEO writes from Maine: "The ones at the top have walked away with vast fortunes, while the humble taxpayer pays to clean up after them.

At the same time, Friedman blankly repeats the central mantra that is keeping these criminals rich, to wit: Citi is too big to fail. If anyone was held responsible the shock would destroy the system, and without the system, why, heaven forbid that we should even contemplate such a grim prospect."


And Wesatch chimes in from Houston: "Quit blaming sub-prime mortgages as the sole culprit of this mess. It started at the Fed and its misguided policies…. The simplification of this mess by a daily column cannot be done. It let's too many off the hook."

Why is it that Friedman and so many of his colleagues have not fully examined the "subcrime" scams that deliberately (with malice and forethought) talked so many into taking on debts they could never pay back? Why haven't they connected the dots with those who bought up these mortgages to package and profit from them as securities?

Can't they see the connection to a predatory and well institutionalized Ponzi scheme with a chain of complicity? These players were at the same time interdependent and in it together. It was a cartel of sleazy operators and securitizers, big and small, connecting small town brokers to big time bankers.

These erudite journos assume that the homeowners who have still not been really helped by all the plans, TARPS and Bailouts were just plain stupid or even deserving of being dumped in the street.

Who are the Stupids here — the people who are losing everything or the media wise men who turn their eyes and pens away from examining the crimes of Wall Street who write in well polished generalities that seem critical at first reading, but then reveal themselves as totally superficial?

Can it be that people who live in big houses, can't see or FEEL the pain of the people shackled by debt in smaller abodes down the street, the folks who are just waiting for the sheriff to toss them out?

Tom Friedman lives in one of those very big houses — you can see it on the Internet at sustainelane.com — but he also purports to be guided by a moral compass even as he blames us all for the sins of a few, concluding:

"That's how we got here — a near total breakdown of responsibility at every link in our financial chain, and now we either bail out the people who brought us here or risk a total systemic crash. These are the wages of our sins."

One sin Tom doesn't comment on is the failure of our media to do a better job of assessing how that irresponsibility was permitted, even encouraged, and who should be held accountable. He was also taken to task for this glib meditation on sin by yet another Times reader, in Arkansas, who calls himself, Death By Inches:

"These are the wages of our sins." Watch that "our" stuff, buddy. My family has not sinned. We're not the brightest bulbs in the pack, but we arrive at this disaster with our house paid off, our cars paid off and no credit card debt. We've lived the way Wall Street bankers have not.

We all may be guilty in the eyes of the Archbishop of the New York Times but some are far, far guiltier. Why don't we find out just who, with a National Commission of Investigation with subpoena power and the right to seize documents and cross-examine, is the "someone" that has to be held accountable!

As I have been saying for over a year, it's time for a JAILOUT, not just a bailout.News Dissector Danny Schechter offers another narrative on the crisis in his book PLUNDER (Cosimo Books), now at online bookstors, and in a new film in the making with the same name. See our new trailer Comments to dissector@mediachannel.org


Danny Schechter is a frequent contributor to Global Research. Global Research Articles by Danny Schechter
Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 02:52 PM) *
But when the general populace begins to realize that all this money has been poured down the drain and that there is no more money to fund health care, education, and other programs that are part and parcel of Obama's agenda, and bread lines start to form with a million unemployed, displaced homeowners, we may be looking at possible riots in the streets by next summer.

And I don't mean to be a prognosticator of gloom and doom ....

AND YOU ARE NOT, Snuf ...

Not a PROGNOSTICATOR OF GLOOM AND DOOM, so far as I can see it, anyway ....

You are more a presenter of all of the different sides and aspects of that which could well be called REALITY ....

The school of logic that I adhere to deals with possibilities and probabilities ....

Sooo ....

In my opinion, anyway, that is what we should be considering in here, in light of our present financial CRISIS ....

If George W. Bush had adhered to the same school, he wouldn't have had his head in his @$$ when he went into IRAQINAM, but of course, that is now American history 101 ...

The LOOTING and this QUA-TRILLION DOLLAR BAIL-OUT is a different thing ...

The damage that idiots did to this nation over in IRAQINAM is 8 or 10 thousand miles away ....

The damage these LOOTERS have done to OUR nation is right here in OUR faces ....

I think that we are foolish to sugarcoat anything in here just because a nice, presentable, well-spoken young black man (actually, brownish, to me, anyway) just became the president-elect of the United States of America ....

And I think that we are equally foolish to do nothing and not talk about it while we wait for him to get his act together come January ....

It is OUR nation, afterall ....

And thus, it is OUR problem to consider and propose solutions to ......

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 02:53 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:43 PM) *
Snuffy, what is Huson's solution to the problem?

HOW CAN YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF RATIONAL SOLUTION TO AN UNDEFINED PROBLEM?

You assume that somehow, Arneoker, we can somehow miraculously get back to YESTERDAY by throwing TRILLIONS of dollars at this financial MESS we are now in, in some part because CORPORATE EXECUTIVES like Henry "HANK" Paulson LOOTED out the RESERVES from their banks, and then foolishly and RECKLESSLY gambled them away .....


I have been trying to define the problem, but I actually think that you pretty much describe it fairly well here, as well as one can in one sentence. My only caveat is the use of the word looting. What if these executives had instead taken such money from their banks and instead put it into a wise portfolio of loans and other investments, which in my mind is what one hopes that bankers would do? Would that have been "looting"?

QUOTE
I am saying that your yesterday is now long gone, Arneoker ....

The PROBLEM, Arneoker, is that your yesterday was nothing but a PIPE DREAM!


On the basis of what do you attribute all of these opinions to me? Of course we cannot just go back to yesterday, if we could then simply imposing regulations that we foolishly ditched would make everything right. But we will need more than that.

QUOTE
Over this last year, the CRAVEN U.S. CONGRESS and "BENNY BOUNCE" Bernanke and Henry "HANK" Paulson and OBAMA TREASURY SECRETARY CHOICE Timothy "BAGMAN" Geithner have HURLED SEVEN TRILLION of OUR DOLLARS at the WALL STREET "PROBLEM" of yours ....

AND THAT MONEY HAS DISAPPEARED!

POOF!

That is where $7 TRILLION of OUR money has gone, Arneoker ....

UP IN SMOKE!


Are you saying that Congress appropriated this money, and/or the Fed loaned it? Could you get me up to speed on the basic mechanism(s) involved concerning this $7 trillion?

QUOTE
Soooo ....

Was there LOOTING involved?

The operative question ....

And so ...


And any time you want to provide an answer and some kind of support for it is fine with me.

I too think it is foolish to do nothing and not talk about this. That is why I have been talking.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Dec 4 2008, 03:01 PM) *
America: confess your guilt.

Because as long we all did it ...

Eat my shorts, Tom Friedman, if you think that I am somehow responsible for this FINANCIAL MELTDOWN brought to us by CORPORATE LOOTERS such as Henry "HANK" Paulson ....

And so ...
tazvil04
If the bailout/rescue is an example of "good government" why would it have to be in disguise?

There is nothing hidden about the idea of government lending a hand to help out based on the financial crisis our banks are facing.

The only potentially nefarious issue regarding the rescue is whether or not the banking industry extorted the money and is using it as many have suggested here on only high return investments, rather than the run of the mill loans which everyday people need to sustain themselves.

I would think that if that becomes a reality, the federal government will step in and force the banks to open their wallets a little wider since they are playing with taxpayer money now.
tazvil04
I do not see the bailout as "looting" the federal treasury.

If anything, the Iraq war was the looting of the federal treasury because it represented a response to a non-existent threat.

The rescue is in response to a real threat -- no credit...which makes our world go round...

It is a necessary evil. No one wanted to rescue the banks, but the alternative of a wolrdwide domino effect in the financial community could have had dramatic consequences...shaking our society to the core and causing a situation rivalling the Japanese meltdown in the 1990s lasting 5-10 years.

Steps had to be taken quickly -- and more steps need to occur.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 03:10 PM) *
Are you saying that Congress appropriated this money, and/or the Fed loaned it?

Could you get me up to speed on the basic mechanism(s) involved?

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 21 2008, 07:32 PM) *
"Analysis: Obama Treasury choice could calm markets - Analysis: US bailouts haven't stopped spiral; investors hope Obama econ picks will bring calm"

By TOM RAUM, Associated Press

Last updated: 6:35 p.m., Friday, November 21, 2008

WASHINGTON -- Why aren't the government bailouts working?

Congress, the administration and the Federal Reserve have hurled well over a trillion dollars at the problem.

But while Paulson told Congress this week the U.S. had "turned the corner" in averting a financial collapse, there is little evidence that the economy's downward spiral has been broken.

Would that I could, Arneoker ....

Would that I could get you UP TO SPEED on the "basic mechanisms" involved ....

As an American citizen, of course, I should be able to do that for you at the literal drop of a hat ......

But not from out here in the cold where I am sitting ...

I don't have access to the data I would need to answer your questions ...

And Arneoker ....

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY!

Just as there no longer seem to be any BASIC MECHANISMS ....

There seems to be a complete abandonment of the RULE OF LAW and the CONSTITUTION by the CRAVEN U.S. CONGRESS ...

They along with George W. Bush appear to have totally SUB-CONTRACTED the entire economy to the BUSHIAN BOZOS Henry "HANK" Paulson and "BENNY BOUNCE" Bernanke and his BAGMAN, Timothy Geithner ....

All ACCOUNTABILITY for any of this money seems to have just flown right out the window, along with our constitution and laws ....

For proof of that assertion, just look at this one sentence from the article "Analysis: Obama Treasury choice could calm markets - Analysis: US bailouts haven't stopped spiral; investors hope Obama econ picks will bring calm" by TOM RAUM, Associated Press, last updated: 6:35 p.m., Friday, November 21, 2008, to wit:

Congress, the administration and the Federal Reserve have hurled well over a trillion dollars at the problem.

end quotes

HURLED WELL OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS AT THE PROBLEM ....

HURLED IT, Arneoker ....

THEY HURLED IT ....

They didn't appropriate it ....

They simply HURLED it ....

This all reminds me of the total power handed to Hitler in Germany right after the Reichstag Fire ....

MEN BECOME THE LAW, Arneoker ....

Not words on a piece of paper, any longer ....

That is what has happened here .....

Henry "HANK" Paulson has become exempt from our laws and OUR Constitution ....

He can lie to Congress with impunity ....

He can change laws passed by Congress with a stroke of his pen ....

He is unaccountable to Congress for anything that he does ....

The same as he was unaccountable when he was CEO of Goldman-Sachs ....

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 03:10 PM) *
Are you saying that Congress appropriated this money, and/or the Fed loaned it?

Could you get me up to speed on the basic mechanism(s) involved?

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 27 2008, 07:29 PM) *
"Massive new programs aimed at loosening credit - Emergency rescue efforts totaling $800 billion aim to loosen credit for consumers, businesses"

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, Associated Press

Last updated: 6:35 p.m., Tuesday, November 25, 2008

WASHINGTON -- Rolling out powerful new weapons against the financial meltdown, the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve pledged $800 billion Tuesday to blast through blockades on credit cards, auto loans, mortgages and other borrowing.

Total bailout commitments neared a staggering $7 trillion.

And look at this article, Arneoker, to appreciate the level of difficulty of the TASK you have presented me with in here ....

Total bailout commitments neared a staggering $7 trillion.

end quotes

SAY WHAT, Arneoker?

COMMITMENTS FROM WHOM?

WHO has committed a STAGGERING $7 TRILLION here, Arneoker?

As an American citizen, in a land ruled by LAW, I should be able to reel off to you who committed this money, and where EVERY DIME of it went ....

BUT I CAN'T, Arneoker ....

NO TRANSPARENCY ....

NO APPROPRIATIONS, Arneoker ....

THERE IS NO TIME FOR THEM ....

JUST KEEP SHOVELING THE MONEY OUT THE DOOR ....

That is all that there is really time for, Arneoker - THE LOOTING ....

Get all that money out the door as quick as you can before someone in America sees what you are doing and questions just what in the HELL is going on ....

Like me in this thread, for example ....

And Snuf in hers ....

And so ....
Arneoker
Well Livyjr, my question concerning "basic mechanisms" was essentially answered by Mr. Raum, he spoke of Congress and the Administration (which implies Congress appropriating and the the Administration spending the money) and the Fed, and he is most likely speaking of making loans through their discount window. When he says "well over a trillion dolllars" I imagine we are talking about a number over, and not very close to, one trillion, but short of 2 trillion.

So I am pretty much up to speed!
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 03:53 PM) *
Total bailout commitments neared a staggering $7 trillion.

end quotes

Could you supply the text from the article supply the context to this statment, or provide the link to the article?
Snuffysmith
Aig: 2008 Bailout Costs As Much As Several Large And Famous ...
Dec 3, 2008 ... This graphic demonstrates how the 2008 bailout, so far, costs as much as several large and famous government projects added up together. ...
consumerist.com/5101440/2008-bailout-costs-as-much-as-several-large-and--famous-government-projects-combined

Calculating the Total Bailout Costs | The Big Picture
Dec 2, 2008 ... More than a few people have asked me how I came up with the the $8.5 trillion figure for the total cost of the bailouts. Below is a table, ...www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/calculating-the-total-bailout-costs/

Bailout costs more than Marshall Plan, Louisiana Purchase ...Bailout costs more than Marshall Plan, Louisiana Purchase, moonshot, S&L bailout , Korean War, New Deal, Iraq war, Vietnam war, and NASA's lifetime budget ...www.boingboing.net/2008/11/25/bailout-costs-more-t.html

The Real News Network - Bailout costs $8.5 trillion</h3>Nov 26, 2008 ... US Federal Government has pledged $8.56 trillion in economic bailout for financial institutions so far.
therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 04:00 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 03:53 PM) *

Total bailout commitments neared a staggering $7 trillion.

Could you supply the text from the article supply the context to this statment, or provide the link to the article?


But, of course, Arneoker ....

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...mp;#entry933810
Snuffysmith
  1. Bailout Costs $8.5 Trillion | CommonDreams.org</h3>Nov 26, 2008 ... Bailout Costs $8.5 Trillion. WASHINGTON - November 26 - US Federal Government has pledged $8.56 trillion in economic bailout for financial ...
    www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/11/26-1 - 30k - Cached - Similar pages -
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 03:58 PM) *
So I am pretty much up to speed!

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 27 2008, 07:29 PM) *
"Massive new programs aimed at loosening credit - Emergency rescue efforts totaling $800 billion aim to loosen credit for consumers, businesses"

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, Associated Press

Last updated: 6:35 p.m., Tuesday, November 25, 2008

WASHINGTON -- Rolling out powerful new weapons against the financial meltdown, the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve pledged $800 billion Tuesday to blast through blockades on credit cards, auto loans, mortgages and other borrowing.

Total bailout commitments neared a staggering $7 trillion.

What are you up to speed on, Arneoker?

Seems like you are missing some $5 TRILLION DOLLARS here to me ...

So are you really up to speed?

Or are you just now letting out the clutch to get moving?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:20 PM) *
Livyjr, you suggested to me that I was "obtuse" for asking if you thought the bailout constituted looting.

In this thread you refer to the "looting" of our Treasury.

Is there some kind of "looting" of the Treasury outside of the bail out?

Could you clarify whether you think that bailout constitutes the looting, some of the looting, or none of the looting?

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Dec 4 2008, 02:27 PM) *
LOOT: goods taken as booty by a victorious army from a sacked city, enemy forces, etc.;

Anything unlawfully taken or seized, AS BY A BURGLER, etc.;

To plunder, as a conquered city;

Pillage;

To carry off as plunder;

To engage in plundering ...

I'm working on that now, Arneoker ....

Have patience ....

It takes an iterative approach ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Dec 4 2008, 02:29 PM) *
But to use one of Tomyhe's metaphors right now we have a fire, and we need to put out that fire.

To use one of Tonto's lines from one of those Lone Ranger jokes where they were surrounded by all the Indians - "WHO'S WE, WHITEMAN?"

WHO has the fire, Arneoker?

tomhye, isn't it?

How is tomhye's fire my fire?

This reminds me of a post by graham where he said that because of this FINANCIAL CRISIS of tomhye's WE were up **** CREEK without a paddle ....

How did graham get me in that boat was my thought ....

And so ....
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