As always, our own esteemed moderator and pundit of many things Arneoker has raised a timely and important point in here following the awarding of a PEACE prize to American president Barack Hussein Obama, and rather than have this discussion in the thread on Obama winning the PEACE prize, I think that it is more proper and fitting, in light of Arneoker's comments above here, to give the issue its own thread ....

Basically, the issue has to do with WHAT IS MURDER, really?

Arneoker does also raise the question of what COWARDLY is, but that is secondary to the essential question of WHAT IS MURDER, so I will consider it in that light ...

WHAT REALLY ARE AMERICANS DOING WHEN THEY GO INTO OTHER COUNTRIES TO KILL PEOPLE WHOSE NAMES THEY DO NOT EVEN KNOW, ALONG WITH THEIR LIFE STORIES?

And yes, of course, that is a very nebulous question ....

So let us be very specific in here, since we have an actual CASE STUDY to consider right above here .....

Sooooooo .....

To start it off, Arneoker ....

Let us go to this vignette above here about a night in Viet Nam back in 1969, and let us hypothesize, Arneoker, that instead of being who he was that night, this Lieutenant on that helicopter was some cigar-chewing dude who when given the order to kill all those people down on the ground turned around with pistol drawn and said, "BOYS, YOU HEARD WHAT THE MAN JUST SAID!"

"LET US GET US SOME BODY COUNT THEN FOR THE MOMS OF AMERICA, CHRIST JESUS, AND THE AMERICAN FLAG!"

WHAT IF WE HAD STARTED FIRING, Arneoker?

WOULD IT HAVE BEEN MURDER?

OR WOULD IT HAVE BEEN SPORT?

AND WOULD IT HAVE BEEN HEROIC?

And anybody else who has some thoughts, please feel free to join in ....

And so ...

war has been going on since the dinasaurs fought each other

to just put a recent addition to the world, the USA, needs to be put in historical context

(and livyjr, you have a very, very warped concept here...
if you were a 45, you would not be playable)

I don't think it would have been murder and I don't think it would have been sport...

graham .....

Don't leave off there ....

Tell us how that might be so ....

And I don't have a concept ....

I have a set of questions that were raised by Arneoker above here ....

IS IT MURDER?

OR IS IT REALLY JUST SPORT?

And so ...

rla ....

What other choices are there, do you think ....

Help us out if you can with your insights into this issue ....

And so ...

IN many threads you are blaming Obama for something that I just do not get.

and arneoker asked you a question, you answered with a somewhat answer
but are you saying that you never fired YOUR own gun on someone while in that Hell back then?
I am not quite sure I can believe that they would have let you keep being out there not doing what they were ordering you too
(but I really don't want to be dragged into an argument here, nor to put you down for that time period).

but take the concept further-

why do cops rat-a-tat-tat fire their guns at innocent ppeople, or even someone guilty 50 times when one bullet in the hand would stop that person cold from firing IF that person had it?

is there a rush of power when people have a gun in their hand (and you know I am not a gun person), but is it the Big-Mo, someone just does it?

I still do not understand the people who stormed the beaches knowing they were going to die, and in the end, for what?
Nor the same good hearted people on the other side who under orders killed those people and knew they would die there

better the leaders go bowling and make the pins their frustration if you ask me

but you would need to ask the cavemen why they fought, and every other group since then.

livy-this is not about war, but I was reading an article (in a respectable magazine I may add),the other day about sex clubs in the 70s that
had (and this is both straight and gay) walls with holes in it where, well, you know what went into the holes in the wall,
and a person was on the other side

anonymous (this was I would assume Pre-AIDS), and one big party

now if you ask me, while it accomplished a purpose, but what was the satisfaction?

it was anonymous. One would have had no idea who was on the other side, and you could not hate or love the person on the other side
as you had no idea who it was.

Isn't war the same?

sanitation men and women just pick up the cans and put it in the truck
all the memories and stories and lives that were in the things put in the can to be discarded, they have no idea
they just do it

like robots

most people do something robotic all day long, then take an hour to get home, for a 1/2 hour dinner and a few hours before bed when they
do it all over again

That is life. One man's murder is another man's sport I guess.

But you blaming Obama, I just don't get. I don't believe the president actually in real life, has the power to stop the military at the end of the day.
He can slow them down, but I do not believe he can stop them with the snap of his fingers.

It would have been the tacticle emplementation of a poorly chosen strategy that was placed in the service of
a nonhumanitarian national purpose by the government of the USA...

What do soldiers fighting in the conflict think about what they are doing? About what they have done?

According to one of the veterans interviewed in the new film, This Is Where We Take Our Stand, approximately 10,000 veterans from the current conflict have committed suicide. Another veteran testified he thinks everyday about the daylight aftermath of a night time free-fire zone raid. Another used a malfunctioning compass to call in an air attack resulting in 5 bombardments on the wrong coordinates killing Afghan villagers and (implied) American troops called to assist.

They are judging themselves.

but they all want to be there, never forget that too

they volunteered

it's not like they were drafted

they wanted the benefits
they wanted the college training
they wanted the gun, the power

they got what they asked for in the 2000's.

Have you watched the film, graham? A number of the soldiers said they volunteered 'to protect our country' and also offered that precise reason for why they testified at the Winter Soldier: Afghanistan/Iraq hearing. You're not informed unless you've watched the film (or some comparable film) or have been in war yourself.

An interesting discussion ....

For my own money, the only person in this thread to my knowledge with any real credibility is livyjr. I put believe_it to the side because I do not really know this person aside from his or her human-oriented approaches to various topics. Let me make my point:

Livyjr has been in combat, and in the line of fire, and has borne and perhaps used a weapon. Whether or not he actually shot and killed anyone is perhaps known only to him and his buddies (some of whom are likely dead) and to that greater spirit, whatever or whomever it is or is called. It is also irrelevant to the discussion. He has declared his "story" (and the price he has paid for having been in combat). I do not perceive or hear any such stories from Graham or Arneoker. I do not have such a story; I have never been in combat, nor had, borne or used a weapon capable of killing anyone. I have also told my story here in earlier times. I was an ROTC cadet in the Bay State Special Forces in 1966 and I chose, knowingly, willingly, having had some insight, having been raised in an avidly-conservative Republican household, taught WWI war poetry by my English teacher, having roomed with a conscientious objector after whom my first-born son was named, etc. I have gone on to a career in life-saving, the study in tactics and strategy, vast amounts of reading in military history, et al. So what? That too is also irrelevant.

What is relevant is this: The only people who can bring any valid insight to this discussion are the ones who have been in the line of fire, who have stood face-to-face with the actual prospect or experience of killing another human being. All else is useless keyboarding or gum-flapping. My story simply is that, early on, I made a life's choice that I would never willingly put myself into such a position because I knew that I would not be able to live with myself if I had. The case files are jammed full of people's medical and psychological histories from the trauma of war. The book The Face of Battle by John Keegan, and perhaps one or two similar books, are relevant to this discussion. If you have never personally been in the situation, you are a spectator (and that includes me) and therefore lack the experience, the moral right, or the knowledge, the gut-level internal moral, physical, spiritual, bodily, cognitive gnosis of the debate.

What I am saying explicitly above here graham is that I was a sniper flying at night on a helicopter with a night vision scope that allowed me to see targets in the dark .....

"TARGETS" is a euphemism for human beings, graham ....

So is "BODY COUNT" .....

So is "COLLATERAL DAMAGE" ....

But collateral damge is the ones you get besides the ones you aimed at, so they are a different category ....

You have to score them differently, graham ....

Haven't you ever played a video game, dude?

And so ...

Arneoker DID NOT ask me a question, graham ....

That was amy, who asked me if I thought it was murder back then in the Viet Nam times when the $*** was actually going down in real time ...

For the sake of fostering further discussion in here, Arneoker ACCUSED me of distorting the TRUTH by being, in dear sweet Arneoker's estimation, anyway, "too free and reckless with words like 'murderer' and 'cowardly'" ......

That in its turn triggered a thought process in my mind as to what the TRUTH even might be here when it comes to MURDER, which really seems to be an "in the eye of the beholder" kind of thing, more than anything ....

So I started this thread as a SOCIAL EXPERIMENT ....

And the basis for that SOCIAL EXPERIMENT is what happened in this vignette from Viet Nam above here ....

IF graham, we had smoked that village that night and killed those unarmed women and children, besides SPORT-SHOOTING, what would it really have been?

What do you personally call it when you machine-gun some women and children in a foreign land like Viet Nam?

GOOD F***ING RIDDANCE?

And so ...

It definitely would have been sport, rla, and yes, it would have been murder too ....

And so ...

WHO can ORDER you to kill someone, graham?

If you hypothetically had been on that helicopter that night, whose orders would you have followed, do you think?

And so ...

Or do you disbelieve that that ever happened?

I seriously doubt they would have an answer, graham, other than that is the way it has been since there were dinosaurs ....

At least that is the answer we got in Viet Nam ....

Now keep on killing because America only knows that it is safe when you boys are producing body-count for the moms of America, Christ Jesus and the American flag ....

(Why does the American flag need people killed for it?)

And so ...

Of course there is, graham ...

Off topic, graham but did you see where jimiray won the COUNTRY MUSIC MALE SINGER OF THE YEAR AWARD?

Back in the 1860's, graham, there was a fight for territory between the Crow Indians and the Shoshone in northwest Wyoming ...

When the Shoshone chief, who was named Washakie, saw that all the struggle was going to do was to decimate both tribes to their mutual peril, he stopped the battle and made it a contest between him and the Crow chief alone ....

Winner take all, graham ...

Washakie, who was then in his 60's killed the Crow chief, who was much younger, and then Washakie cut out his heart and held it up where the Crow could see it and he told them that if they were going to try and come back, that they ought to make sure they got a leader with more heart than this one had ....

And you know, graham, that works for me ....

If Obama has a problem with some dude over in Afghanistnam, let him go and settle it, mano a mano .....

If words alone will do it, then God bless Obama ....

But if blows need to be struck, it should be Obama who is doing the striking ....

He shouldn't be sending out armies to settle his scores for him ....

If he is so confident of his manhood as his supporters say he is, then he should be man enough to go out there and kill his people's enemies with his bare hands as Washakie did back when ....

And if he can't graham, then he shouldn't be starting fights that he can't handle and he can't finish in the first place ....

And so ...

Is Bob Kerrey (not John but Bob) considered in your mind a murderer for what he did?

magmak is right. I wasn'tthere, after deferrments would have ended, after all that, if it came to it, probably I would have gone up to our Canadian neightbors.

My wonderment is at those who volunteer today
I classify them in 3 ways

The black kids that have nothing else and the armed forces are their only way out (and they most likely did not volunteer for what has happened)

then there are the others who do have a choice but for some reason volunteer anyhow

(grandfather/father were in and it is taught to them they must be in for one

and then there are the ones who want to kill (and that is probably the blackwater types mercenarries) who each hit probably brings in $$$)
those are like paid assasssins

Livy-I don't think there is one set answer
and 2009 is different than the 60s and 70s, when there were no rules back then

I never, ever thought in the 1990s that there would be a war (now two of them, maybe soon 3 or 4) that way again. Never.

Well, graham ....

Those are all very important thoughts ....

And you might be right ....

Although in reality, the military is subordinate to the CONGRESS and the American people, which might be nothing more than a joke on us now ....

And I am glad that you participate and have those thoughts in here, graham, because I consider them quite serious ....

And so ...

Harry S. Truman did sack Douglas McArthur, graham, who has been called an American Caesar ....

And so ...

it is not Obama's wars

again, if he left and a million innocents died, you would be calling that murder
Obama can't win

just talk the other day of reducing, and all the repubs started yapping about cutting and running and all that

And then there is Hillary and the boys of war


I personally would bring them all home 8 years ago but I am nobody.

and HST murdered a million innocent people didn't he?
(we can go roundrobin all day).
I am not a Truman fan.

Obama IS the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, graham ....

The buck for every bullet fired, every bomb dropped, does stop with him .....

Just as responsibility for murder ultimately comes up to him when it is his strategy being implemented that is causing the murder ....

But we here in America want to believe in a fantasy that somehow, even though he gives the orders, the American president is not really responsible for the results, which I consider to be BULL$***, graham, myself ....

And so .....

again, 1/2 the nation is staying the course, 1/2 wants to get out

the media all wants to up it

there are not many who have his ear (just biden) who want to get out of Afghanastan

...

you notice, he is methodically thinking about his options

Why did IKE get us into Vietnam in the first place?

We are NOT going roundrobin at all, graham ....

And it has nothing to do with whether or not you are a fan of Truman ....

I personally am not ...

The sole point is that Truman, an American president, did in fact remove or fire a very powerful and popular American general in a time of war ....

And Obama has done the same already in Afghanistnam ....

WHEN HE ESCALATED THE WAR EARLIER THIS YEAR ....

So Obama definitely is controlling the American military, graham ....

It is not controlling him ....

And thus, as an American citizen, I am holding Obama responsible for everything the American military is doing since he took command ....

AND ...

The drones firing the missiles in Pakistan belong to the CIA which belongs directly to Obama ....

So the murder that they do is on Obama's hands, graham ....

And so ...

And graham, as you said above ....

This thread is not really about war ....

As believe_it said above, it is about what people in war think about when they are killing people ....

Or maybe refusing to kill people ....

It really is about NATURAL LAW and the right of someone to defend themselves against aggression ....

DO THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT?

And so ....

Jack Kennedy did, graham ....

By playing fast and loose with the truth ....

Which made America a HYPOCRITE in the eyes of the world, graham ....

JFK began America's long reign as a ROGUE NATION on the face of the earth ....

And Obama is now continuing that tradition, PEACE prize notwithstanding ....

And so ...

I think that that is one of the truest statements that you will find in this thread in the end, graham ....

I think that that is the case, myself ....

But I don't want to speak for others ....

Let them speak for themselves ...

It is an open thread in that regard ....

And so ....

That is a very true statement, rla ....

Nonetheless, however ....

Do you believe the story to be true as told, rla?

When I got back to here, I generally found persons were in one of two categories .....

One category would not or could not believe that such a thing could be true ....

America just does not do those kinds of things and thus, I must be a liar ....

The other category totally believes that America does and should do those kinds of things and the Lieutenant and crew got what they deserved for not following orders ....

And I must be a pussy, myself, for not shooting when ordered to ....

Is there a third camp out there, I wonder?

And so ...

After that MISSION, graham, I went up to a lt. colonel and I told him that the next time he saw old LBJ, to tell LBJ for me to come over to Viet Nam and kiss my @$%$ and to go **** himself because I wasn't going to kill any more Vietnamese for LBJ ....

And I told that colonel that everything we were doing there was wrong and un-American, and thus, unjustified and unjustifiable ...

Those people we were killing were doing America no harm ....

They were being killed just because the people in America wanted them killed, graham ....

AND NOBODY CAN ORDER YOU TO COMMIT MURDER, graham ....

NOBODY ....

And since they are dead and can't speak for themselves, I am doing it for them in here ....

IT'S A PEACE PRIZE, Obama ....

SO STOP THE DAMN KILLING WHY DON'T YOU?

And so ...

No, Magmak1 .....

Here I CANNOT agree with what you have said here ....

It really comes down to the MORAL VALUES a nation wishes to have, if any ....

And that is YOU PEOPLE, recalling that this thread started in part with amy asking me a question about whether I thought it was murder in another thread ...

graham says those soldiers in Afghanistnam volunteered, and so they did ....

That cannot be disputed ....

BUT ....

Before they did, they were American citizens just like you and graham, Magmak1 ....

WHAT WERE THEIR VALUES THEN?

AND WHY?

If non-veterans are left out of this discussion, then that is an abdication of responsibility as I see it ....

Not being able to stop the killing is far different from condoning the killing ....

And if the majority are FOR the killing, then it is never going to stop ....

And so ...

That is true in part, Magmak1 ...

Which is why I posted that TRUE STORY above here, to put you right on into the GOD SEAT where I was sitting that night ...

And to pose a series of questions based on the experience ....

WOULD IT HAVE BEEN MURDER, Magmak1, if you had been the one with the weapon and you opened fire?

And I do believe that you have the moral right to consider what you would have done and felt in that exact situation, since you are a human being, and so were they ....

OR WERE THEY?

And who gets to make that call, Magmak1?

WHO has that kind of moral authority?

And so ...

We talk about all this peace, and change that you can hope for and all that twaddle while dismissing people in other countries as being little more than two-legged game animals that we have this innate right to kill wherevver we find them with no due process of law afforded whatsoever ....

Which defines an uncivilized people, actually ....

And then we wonder why there is endless war ...

And NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER ....

And so ...

I think that everybody in America who is for the killing ought to get put right in that GOD SEAT in a helicopter hovering right over their own home while their family was flushed out for them to kill with CS gas ....

Make it real visceral for them ....

Help them come to a decision about whether or not they are really for the killing, afterall ....

And then maybe wars will end ....

But not before I think ....

And so ...

The handbook of the strategist has said:

"Do not invite the fight, accept it instead ...."

"Better a foot behind than an inch too far ahead ..."

Which means:

Look a man straight in the face .....

And make no move ....

Roll up your sleeve ...

And clench no fist .....

Open your hand ....

And show no weapon ....

Bare your breast ...

And find no foe!

But as long as there be a foe ....

VALUE HIM!

Respect him ....

Measure him ....

Be humble towards him ....

Let him not strip from you ....

However strong he be ....

Compassion ....

The one wealth ...

Which can afford him ....

- Lao Tze, Tao Te Ching

We fail to teach the young, as they are growing up, that each and every human being is of equal worth and therefore each and every human being is of ultimate worth...Accepting this principle would preclude human beings
killing human beings...

Why do you think that might be, rla?

graham ....

In this thread, there really can be no argument that you can drag me into or get dragged into yourself ...

It is like those questions on psychological tests as to whether you would rather rob a bank or shoot your mother, "A" or "B", no "neither" ...

And I have no concern about you trying to put me down for that time period ...

It was what it was and now, we all have to live with it, one way or another .......

The real issue is why does this $*** continue?

And there, your thoughts and opinions are as valid as mine, or they could be even more so, since I don't really have a clue about anybody else ....

All I know is how I feel about it ....

And think about it ....

Through my own personal lens of right and wrong ...

And so ...

Maybe the young fail to learn, rla ....

Or it could be a function of Darwinism ....

And so ...

Indeed, although our august commentator from a retiriee's horsy B&B in Arkansas is essentially saying the same thing, I think it needs to be stated clearly that it is not due to our failure to teach the children but, indeed, the very success in our doing so. Arthur Silber, at http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/ and a student of Alice Miller's works, has been pounding this drum for a long time.

"... the unrecognized and unspeakable cruelty visited by most adults on children ... is where the possibility of future cruelty and barbarism is implanted. The kind of brutality and monstrous criminality embodied by the United States -- and by Obama -- does not arise out of nothing. You might ask yourself about its source. But, as discussed in the earlier post (and in the numerous linked essays), almost no one cares to investigate such matters, for that would be far too threatening to the lies which sustain most people's lives."

And I have thirty books on my shelf and another 20 web articles bookmarked that say the same thing.

Maybe you can only learn about REALITY, Magmak1, by experiencing reality ....

Getting slapped right in the face hard by it ....

And then surviving the experience ...

And so ...

I have been in the situation and I can tell you that at the time, it was not murder for me, but survival.

In the case where you are shooting at innocent civilians and you have no choice then I can't conclude it is murder but it is wrong for the country to send you to do that.

In Afghanistan, what we are doing is a lot of nation building and a little murder that I believe could be avoided. I would like for us to pull out of Afghanistan because there is nothing we can accomplish there.


Iraq was a different story for me. I'm sure it wasn't for those who were innocents that died.

as for teaching the children-

1/3 of the country to 1/2 think its a great thing to KILL the opposition

remember a certain ex-poster named Marine used to advocate weekly on the board the elimination of all of a certain group that has been in the news lately (all millions and millions of them, billions even)

so kids of viewpoints like that, they are not taught to stop killing but the exact opposite.

Thanks for joining in, heart ....

And WHICH situation, pray tell?

Were you sitting in a helicopter at hover above a bunch of women and children, UNARMED, who were running around on the ground trying to escape the CS gas that was fired in on them by U.S. mortars to flush them out in the open so that they could be machine-gunned by us?

With all due respect, heart, how are you getting SURVIVAL out of that?

Are you saying that your life would have been somehow in jeopardy if you refused the order to gun down those UNARMED civilians?

Would you have been killed like the crew of that helicopter for refusing that order?

And so ...

HOW, heart, can you ever be in a situation of where you have NO CHOICE but to shoot at innocent civilians?

HOW can that possibly happen?

And heart, here you have brought us on around to where I was heading in my own thoughts ...

And that is with respect to this thing rla and others are always on about in here, which is DEMOCRACY .....

When you say that it is WRONG for "THE COUNTRY" to send you to kill innocent civilians in another country whose land you have invaded, and whose homes, lives and property you are destroying, WHO are you really referring to in the case of a CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRATICAL HUMANITARIAN REPUBLIC WITH A FREE MARKET ECONOMY such as is the United States of America?

WHO is THE NATION, heart, that sends out people like me to take other people's lives for it?

That is certainly something that I would like to know ....

AND WHO ARE THOSE SOLDIERS, heart?

Aren't they American citizens just like us?

Or are they something completely different?

And so ...