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Magmak1
Neuroanthropology, a rough guide:



There's a comprehensive and compelling introduction to neuroanthropology over at the blog of the same name that outlines why we can't fully understand the brain or culture while thinking of them as separate entities: http://neuroanthropology.net/2009/10/08/th...pology-why-now/

The Neuroanthropology blog is run by two of the main researchers in the field and this recent article was written to launch their recent conference 'The Encultured Brain': http://neuroanthropology.net/conference/

The article is in-depth but accessible and clearly lays out the main ideas in the field, looking at the benefits to both brain science and cultural studies in a combined approach and noting where narrow thinking has dimmed our view of human nature.

The potential gains are enormous: a robust account of brains in the wild, an understanding of how we come to possess our distinctive capacities and the degree to which these might be malleable across our entire species. The applications of this sort of research are myriad in diverse areas such as education, cross-cultural communication, developmental psychology, design, therapy, and information technology, to name just a few. But the first step is the one taken here – by coming together, we can achieve significant advances in understanding how our very humanity relies on the intricate interplay of brain and culture.

http://www.mindhacks.com/
Livyjr
Do they have a specific chapter on graham's brain?
rla
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 21 2009, 12:42 AM) *
Neuroanthropology, a rough guide:



There's a comprehensive and compelling introduction to neuroanthropology over at the blog of the same name that outlines why we can't fully understand the brain or culture while thinking of them as separate entities: http://neuroanthropology.net/2009/10/08/th...pology-why-now/

The Neuroanthropology blog is run by two of the main researchers in the field and this recent article was written to launch their recent conference 'The Encultured Brain': http://neuroanthropology.net/conference/

The article is in-depth but accessible and clearly lays out the main ideas in the field, looking at the benefits to both brain science and cultural studies in a combined approach and noting where narrow thinking has dimmed our view of human nature.

The potential gains are enormous: a robust account of brains in the wild, an understanding of how we come to possess our distinctive capacities and the degree to which these might be malleable across our entire species. The applications of this sort of research are myriad in diverse areas such as education, cross-cultural communication, developmental psychology, design, therapy, and information technology, to name just a few. But the first step is the one taken here – by coming together, we can achieve significant advances in understanding how our very humanity relies on the intricate interplay of brain and culture.

http://www.mindhacks.com/


Thanks for sharing this Magmak1...you bring more goodies to the table than anyone I know of...it
is a relief to find out that science is catching up with me.

After working as a school counselor for a couple of years with a Master's Degree, I had an opportunity to go back to Grad. School to work on a Doctorate in Counseling Psychology. I was supported by a five-year federal grant to the University of Ga. focused on early childhood education and the task of
integrating Anthorpology into the early childhood and elementary school curriculum...I will always be gratefull for this experience as it set me on a holistic journey to integrate the human sciences from
the very beginning...
believe_it
FILM BREAK laugh.gif

This aired on Sundance recently and however imperfect is worthwhile especially for those intrigued by the brave new worlds of evolutionary biology/neurology/psychology/economics, etc.
QUOTE
http://www.aboutfilm.com/movies/d/dopamine.htm

Dopamine

Review by Erika Hernandez
USA, 2003. Rated R. 79 minutes

Grade: D

"Love and Happiness…can make you do right…make you do wrong…make you come home early…make you stay out all night long…the power of Love…Uh."
—Al Green, Soul Music Deity


"My hypothalamus is in overdrive."
—"Rand," protagonist of Dopamine


We have all been here. We meet someone. There is an inaudible, mutual "click." Then suddenly, we cannot get enough of them. They penetrate our thoughts at the most curious times—during meetings, in traffic, in the frozen food isle. We remember the songs they say they like and then listen to them repeatedly. We adopt their activities—activities we once ridiculed and swore we would never do—rollerblading, video game playing, Jazz café frequenting, reading Valley of the Dolls, watching Battlefield Earth.

We crave their smell. We dismiss any negative aspect of their personality, chalking it up to their idiosyncratic splendor. Whether we are doctors, truck drivers, or writers, when we think we are "falling in love," we collectively regress. All training, education, and pragmatism are stripped away, and boom! We are but 5-year olds on the playground again, waiting for Johnny or Suzie to make us one more mud pie.

There are two paradigms that speak to this "whacked over the head" behavior. There are of course the Romantics. To them, love is and should be a mystery. Any attempt to qualify it, quantify it, or otherwise explain it away is futile. Further, if you are unwilling to surrender to it, you are never going to truly experience it and are basically dead on the inside.

Others seek to explain the above activity empirically. Scientists have researched the physiological activity of people falling in "love." According to their findings, it is neither magic, nor mystery, but a series of neurological reactions that deliver a certain high. It is ultimately this high that we are chasing, rather than our latest Her or Him. Happiness and Love are essentially Norepinephrine and Dopamine.

Dopamine, the film, seeks to explore both sides of this "love debate" though the professional and personal life of Rand (John Livingston). Rand lives in San Francisco, where he is a partner in a 3-D animation startup. Rand shares his small, office space with fellow partners, Winston (Bruno Campos)—an attractive and brazen lothario—and Johnson (Rueben Grundy)—whose Zen-like demeanor is a nice balance for the creative team. The three characters transparently comprise the human ethos of Id, Ego, and Superego.

As is the nature of the small company, the sleep-deprived partners have been working like fiends on their only project, for their only client: A 3-dimensional bird named Koy-Koy. Koy-Koy is Rand's brainchild, and is initially marketed as a socialization tool for children, although Rand's little dream is that every man, woman, and child can benefit from having Koy-Koy as their household pet.

Rand's family life adds an obvious, secondary layer/backstory to his character. Through voiceovers of his father hammering his "love is only a chemical" canon into his head, we see Rand trying to interact with his reticent mother—a victim of Alzheimer's. Rand's father recalls how "in love" they once were, and is resigned to the fact that she is pretty much gone. Their "love" is no more, because she is unable to deliver the chemistry he requires.

Koy-Koy then, serves as Rand's way of safely expressing emotion. He can turn it on; he can alter it; he can shut it down. But, in real life with real people, Rand has adopted his father's view of "love" as a defense mechanism for opening up to its experience and potential loss.

Enter Sarah (Sabrina Lloyd), a kindergarten teacher in the class where Koy-Koy is test marketed. Sarah has her own set of baggage. Although she believes in love in the romantic sense, she is struggling with guilt because of a prior life decision. This guilt has caused her to be guarded and self-destructive…and apparently to paint very badly. Rand and Sarah's lives intersect, and both battle with their inner demons and definitions of love.

Since Dopamine's story is based primarily on Rand and Sarah's relationship, the viewer expects to see a subtle journey of two emotionally stunted characters. Unfortunately, the writers use Rand and Sarah's exchanges and dialogue to debate once again the central issue, not metaphorically, but OUT LOUD. And so it goes…Is love chemical? Is love emotional? Is love spiritual? They debate it in bars. They debate it while driving. They debate it on beach walks. They even debate it while they are being intimate.

Yes, in perhaps one of the most ridiculous "make out" scenes to receive screen time, Rand tells Sarah about how his neurotransmitters are firing, and what they are releasing. Ooh, now I am feeling the Dopamine activating my receptors, now here comes the Norepinephrine… ("Now, I am leaving," thinks the viewer.).

Tossing around Dopamine's themes ad nauseam is an entirely unnecessary tactic. The "what is love, really?" question is addressed visually throughout the film. When Rand first sees Sarah, or "feels" anything relating to love or excitement, the film cuts to 3-D computer generated images of "what is going on" inside his brain. This technique is especially interesting since a sub-theme of Dopamine is virtual reality/artificial intelligence. Writer/director Decena also has both characters going to abstract art galleries and playing with interactive pieces that deal with masks: our own and others'. Someone needed to tell Dopamine's writers that the, "LOVE IS REAL! NO, IT'S NOT!" banter kills the film's core issue, rather than underscoring it.

That someone, by the way, is Sundance. Dopamine was nurtured from concept to screen in Sundance's Screenwriter Lab, Filmmaker Lab, Film Festival, and Film Series. The result is a piece that deals with an extremely interesting question, but reads more like a student project from "Sundance University." Its actors produce good, student-level performances. The script is a fine student script. But like our little Koy-Koy, Dopamine was a novel idea that fell prey to its hermetic environment. It was full of good intentions and potential, but laden with glitches and poorly executed.


.
Magmak1
Thank you, good kind sir (RLA).

There's more simmering in the kitchen.

Magmak1
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 21 2009, 04:22 PM) *
There's more simmering in the kitchen.



soup's on... Get There if you Can
rla
Carl Jung, "We need to understand ourselves as a human species evolving together."

A separate Self is an estranged system, in various states of anomie...only to be made whole through the process of human identification...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 12:26 PM) *
Carl Jung, "We need to understand ourselves as a human species evolving together."

I think that there has been quite a bit of mutation in the human branch since Jung, rla ...

What it is ain't what it was ....

And Jung would find that to be quite fascinating ...

And rla ....

While we might be evolving at the same time ....

That don't mean that we are evolving together ....

We in fact could be evolving quite separately and distinctly ....

Which I believe is the case ...

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 01:43 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 12:26 PM) *
Carl Jung, "We need to understand ourselves as a human species evolving together."

I think that there has been quite a bit of mutation in the human branch since Jung, rla ...

What it is ain't what it was ....

And Jung would find that to be quite fascinating ...

And rla ....

While we might be evolving at the same time ....

That don't mean that we are evolving together ....

We in fact could be evolving quite separately and distinctly ....

Which I believe is the case ...

And so ...


Given the interconnectedness between the human brain/nervous system and human culture and the
iterative process involved in evolution and maturation of human organisms, the concept of a collective unconsciousness is not at all far fetched. Science is begining to connect the dots of how this works...

Comparative analysis within and across species has established the principle that long ago we crossed the threshhold where the structure/process of the whole affects the parts more than any aggregation of parts can affect the whole...so that in 2009 any two samples of a species are much more alike than
different. There has already been a sufficient removal of artificial boundaries to assure that we are working with a common gene pool, from the standpoint of evolution...

The only way to get more bang for our buck is to learn more how the brain and human culture interacts.

I think we need to look for those structure/processes in the human social system that predisposes people to dychotomize Others into Sane or Insane, Good or Evil..

The history of the US since WWII has been shaped by our opposition to Russia and China and it
is still being shaped by these forces...How is this affecting our human development?
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 01:12 PM) *
I think we need to look for those structure/processes in the human social system that predisposes people to dychotomize Others into Sane or Insane, Good or Evil..

Then you need to look at school teachers and psychologists, rla ....

There is where you must needs make your start, I think, anyway .....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 01:12 PM) *
The only way to get more bang for our buck is to learn more how the brain and human culture interacts.

The brain is plastic, rla ....

It is changing even as you try and study it ....

So all you know is where it has been ....

And so ...
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 12:12 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 01:43 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 12:26 PM) *
Carl Jung, "We need to understand ourselves as a human species evolving together."

I think that there has been quite a bit of mutation in the human branch since Jung, rla ...

What it is ain't what it was ....

And Jung would find that to be quite fascinating ...

And rla ....

While we might be evolving at the same time ....

That don't mean that we are evolving together ....

We in fact could be evolving quite separately and distinctly ....

Which I believe is the case ...

And so ...


Given the interconnectedness between the human brain/nervous system and human culture and the
iterative process involved in evolution and maturation of human organisms, the concept of a collective unconsciousness is not at all far fetched. Science is begining to connect the dots of how this works...

Comparative analysis within and across species has established the principle that long ago we crossed the threshhold where the structure/process of the whole affects the parts more than any aggregation of parts can affect the whole...so that in 2009 any two samples of a species are much more alike than
different. There has already been a sufficient removal of artificial boundaries to assure that we are working with a common gene pool, from the standpoint of evolution...

The only way to get more bang for our buck is to learn more how the brain and human culture interacts.

I think we need to look for those structure/processes in the human social system that predisposes people to dychotomize Others into Sane or Insane, Good or Evil..

The history of the US since WWII has been shaped by our opposition to Russia and China and it
is still being shaped by these forces...How is this affecting our human development?

I agree. IMO one way culture can be studied is through the Stories and Myths that come out of a Culture. I would enjoy having this discussion long term so I hope this thread stays up. Problem I have now is that I'm in the middle of moving from West LA to Long Beach so my participation my be spotty.

However I would say that Judgement is the attribute of brain/personality/culture that always gets to the core of what we would call Good - Evil - Sane or Insane. BTW included in "judgement" (as I mean it) is intention.

I forget who said it. Maybe Einstein. But someone once said the difference between genius and madness is judgement.

Like the Beatles say in Strawberry Fields ; "At least I know when it's a dream..."

More later.

And just my opinion.
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 02:25 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 01:12 PM) *
The only way to get more bang for our buck is to learn more how the brain and human culture interacts.

The brain is plastic, rla ....

It is changing even as you try and study it ....

So all you know is where it has been ....

And so ...


Both the human brain/nervous system and human cultures are systems...All systems are composed of
the interaction of structure and process. Both systems are dynamic in their trends of maintaining a certain amount of equilibrium while adapting through time and space...The degree of plasticity in
individual systems is normally distributed in the population of such systems..Thus some individual
organisms and some individual cultures change at different rates...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 01:42 PM) *
Thus some individual organisms and some individual cultures change at different rates...

Okay, rla ....

With this statement or admission of yours above here, we have a common basis to start from here, I would say ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 22 2009, 01:32 PM) *
IMO one way culture can be studied is through the Stories and Myths that come out of a Culture.

When I was young, I was taught to differentiate myths from reality ....

That was at the close of WWII ....

Myths were not in vogue then ....

Because it was in part Germany's belief in myths that caused WWII to happen ....

That is what Wagner's Ring Cycle operas are about - MYTHS ....

And it is essential to moving forward in life to know the difference ....

Or to know that there might be a difference ...

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 03:00 PM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 22 2009, 01:32 PM) *
IMO one way culture can be studied is through the Stories and Myths that come out of a Culture.

When I was young, I was taught to differentiate myths from reality ....

That was at the close of WWII ....

Myths were not in vogue then ....

Because it was in part Germany's belief in myths that caused WWII to happen ....

That is what Wagner's Ring Cycle operas are about - MYTHS ....

And it is essential to moving forward in life to know the difference ....

Or to know that there might be a difference ...

And so ...


Any two entities must be seen as separate and different in order to maximize the potential interaction of the entities. We see this principle in play with the frequent confussion in the interface
of States Rights and Obligations and National Rights and Obligations..
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 02:28 PM) *
We see this principle in play with the frequent confussion in the interface of States Rights and Obligations and National Rights and Obligations..

There are no federal or national rights or obligations that are separate or different from state's rights and obligations ...

It is all related to the same things - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ....

The only question is one of what we have delegated to whom ...

And so ...

rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 03:44 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 02:28 PM) *
We see this principle in play with the frequent confussion in the interface of States Rights and Obligations and National Rights and Obligations..

There are no federal or national rights or obligations that are separate or different from state's rights and obligations ...

It is all related to the same things - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ....

The only question is one of what we have delegated to whom ...

And so ...

Perhaps that wasn't a good example...the principle I am speaking to is that yes, the study of myths
can be useful for studying the social system, if we are careful not to confuse them with empirical
observations...

The integration of art and science is additive to understanding the human social system and it is important not to confuse the two...
Livyjr
I would say, rla, that myths are within us and connect us with a past that can teach us about ourselves ......

Empirical observations are concerned with what is going on around us and are temporal and transient .......

And so ...
heart
The net through which we see the world....break it all down into chemicals or find some frame of reference for all of it, but it doesn't matter in the end.

If dopamine was the answer to these questions wouldn't we be able to increase the dopamine in those who suffer from a lack of ability to form bonds? To understand or have cues into the feelings of others? Reduce psycho or sociopathology? It has never worked - because there is so much more to the equation than we can know.

The human experience is dependent on that which separates us from the other beasts...they certainly love, but they don't do so to such a degree as humans do. All of the neuron firing in our brains can not explain the complexity of our "feelings"

And really, who is to say what comes first? The chemistry or the feelinags? So much of psychoneurology relies on variations slightly outside the placebo effect, and since personalities are dynamic and since no one thing works on everyone, no one can speculate on the "chicken or egg" argument that comes from the spectrum of human emotions and their causes and interactions.

We can't even figure out why people are gay, other's bisexual, other's fall in love with jerks, other's fall in love with stand up guys. We don't know nurture from nature, we ignore the "love" that develops from unions arranged by parents (which still exist in most of the world). We simply don't know!

But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what? Will we take drugs to fall in love, to fall out of love, to acount for our cultural norms all for the sake of trying to comprehend the incomprehensible.

I will always read and appreciate this science of the brain...but I will never believe that emotions can be quantified....the day that happens, humanity is over.
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *
The human experience is dependent on that which separates us from the other beasts...they certainly love, but they don't do so to such a degree as humans do.

Where, pray tell, heart, did you get that information from?

Is that in a book somewhere?
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *
But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what?

Will we take drugs to fall in love, to fall out of love, to acount for our cultural norms all for the sake of trying to comprehend the incomprehensible.

Why not, heart?

People take pills for everything else ....

They even have pills that allow you to do t'ai chi ....

Can you just imagine it ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *
But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what?

Our "western" views?

What are our alleged "western views"?
billfmsd
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 01:43 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 22 2009, 12:26 PM) *
Carl Jung, "We need to understand ourselves as a human species evolving together."

I think that there has been quite a bit of mutation in the human branch since Jung, rla ...

What it is ain't what it was ....

And Jung would find that to be quite fascinating ...

And rla ....

While we might be evolving at the same time ....

That don't mean that we are evolving together ....

We in fact could be evolving quite separately and distinctly ....

Which I believe is the case ...

And so ...
Not so different. Your experiences may make you develop separately and distinctly, but the core of your being is relatively the same:

Henry Markram is director of Blue Brain, a supercomputing project that can model components of the mammalian brain to precise cellular detail:

QUOTE(Henry Markram)
The most important design secret of the brain is diversity. Every neuron is different. It's the same in the forest. Every pine tree is different. You may have many different types of trees, but every pine tree is different. And in the brain it's the same. So there is no neuron in my brain that is the same as another, and there is no neuron in my brain that is the same as in yours. And your neurons are not going to be oriented and positioned in exactly the same way. And you may have more or less neurons. So it's very unlikely that you got the same fabric, the same circuitry.

So, how could we possibly create a reality that we can even understand each other? Well, we don't have to speculate. We can look at all 10 million synapses now. We can look at the fabric. And we can change neurons. We can use different neurons with different variations. We can position them in different places, orient them in different places. We can use less or more of them. And when we do that what we discovered is that the circuitry does change. But the pattern of how the circuitry is designed does not. So, the fabric of the brain, even though your brain may be smaller, bigger, it may have different types of neurons, different morphologies of neurons, we actually do share the same fabric. And we think this is species-specific, which means that that could explain why we can't communicate across species.

http://www.ted.com/speakers/henry_markram.html
rla
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 06:17 PM) *
The net through which we see the world....break it all down into chemicals or find some frame of reference for all of it, but it doesn't matter in the end.

If dopamine was the answer to these questions wouldn't we be able to increase the dopamine in those who suffer from a lack of ability to form bonds? To understand or have cues into the feelings of others? Reduce psycho or sociopathology? It has never worked - because there is so much more to the equation than we can know.

The human experience is dependent on that which separates us from the other beasts...they certainly love, but they don't do so to such a degree as humans do. All of the neuron firing in our brains can not explain the complexity of our "feelings"

And really, who is to say what comes first? The chemistry or the feelinags? So much of psychoneurology relies on variations slightly outside the placebo effect, and since personalities are dynamic and since no one thing works on everyone, no one can speculate on the "chicken or egg" argument that comes from the spectrum of human emotions and their causes and interactions.

We can't even figure out why people are gay, other's bisexual, other's fall in love with jerks, other's fall in love with stand up guys. We don't know nurture from nature, we ignore the "love" that develops from unions arranged by parents (which still exist in most of the world). We simply don't know!

But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what? Will we take drugs to fall in love, to fall out of love, to acount for our cultural norms all for the sake of trying to comprehend the incomprehensible.

I will always read and appreciate this science of the brain...but I will never believe that emotions can be quantified....the day that happens, humanity is over.


The dopamine article adds interesting background material in that it too could be considered an application of neuroanthropology...Perhaps Believe it will show how it amplifies the iterative process of brain/culture development...

I think the processes of human perception, conception, feeling emotions, organismic and cognitive intending and actions (movement) have been separately measured in reliable and valid ways (within
a standard error of measurement). I think these separate processes can be shown to be mutually interactive on their influence on the organism's (person) behavior and experience which responds as a whole, with varying levels of integration---at varying levels of awareness (beta, alpha, theta and delta),
heart
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 07:34 PM) *
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *
But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what?

Our "western" views?

What are our alleged "western views"?


Don't worry about it Liv, you're not part of it. You don't fit in anyone's categories.
Magmak1
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 09:29 PM) *
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *
The human experience is dependent on that which separates us from the other beasts...they certainly love, but they don't do so to such a degree as humans do.

Where, pray tell, heart, did you get that information from?

Is that in a book somewhere?



I think the functional word here is anthropomorphic. It is a special kind of Western or Cartesian "exceptionalism" at which we homo sapiens are getting very good. I think, therefore I am, or is is I am, therefore I think, or maybe it's I just want to be in charge around here so I'll make it up as I go along and figure out how to mess up that other guy first.

We even named ourselves homo sapiens sapiens, the upright bipedal fellow who knows that he knows, and he knows so much that he kills off the other upright bipedal types who know that they know with Predatory "deus ex machina", flechettes, white phosphurus, and Agent Orange [gosh death is so Crayola-like], because they speak a different language, worship some other prophet from millennia ago (talk about be here now, eh?), and because they look and talk funny....

and we upright bipedals are so knowing twice removed that we are killing the very place that sustains us, poisoning the oceans, polluting the air, dusting the place with depleted uranium, killing off the only creatures with bigger brains with our all-knowing underwater echo-location systems and other ambient noise, and we maintain enough nuclear weapons (and enough threats to use them) that we can kill instantaneously every upright bipedal in the 150 largest cities on the planet -- gone in a flash, as it were --

and even if we let loose only a small number of them, we will doom all our all-knowing selves to a slow, deteriorating death. (Even building and maintaining the little boys poisons the surrounding land and water and sometimes even the people who work with them.)

Gosh, that is indeed a whale of a lot of love, huh?

Dogs and cats and birds and bees could never love that much, could they? We sure are so much higher/better than those lowly beasts. But we have to keep working at it; I heard that that there's a pack of feral dogs out back building themselves a ballistic missile sub.

It's a good thing we've built the nano-bees for surveillance and military missions; the real ones are dying off, thanks to Monsanto and Bayer CropScience, I'm told. It's okay, though; we don't need honey in our land of milk and honey; we can manufacture high fructose corn syrup and feel them cows some of that growth hormone....


Praise God (Or Allah) (or Yahweh), and pass the ammunition.
heart
We are a cancer on the earth. Yet I still choose to live it.

Anthropomorphic is what the Egyptians did with their Gods, made them part human part animal...the Dravidians certainly did this and the Vedic wanderers that spread Hinduism. Making cows holy, cats holy etc...

Anthrocentric, that's humanity! But, I eat fish and chicken, so I guess I can't really talk. I am pretty anthrocentric, but certainly no more than your average Northern Californian granola. I just have a strange sense of humor....can't help it...My mAmA dressed me funny and it screwed up my neurons. I guess I need to follow my own advice and learn to use my emoticonicals teehee.gif
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 08:48 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 07:34 PM) *

QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 05:17 PM) *

But, we feel the need to reduce everything to fit our arrogance, our western views and then believe the studies funded by pharma....but for what?

Our "western" views?

What are our alleged "western views"?



Don't worry about it Liv, you're not part of it.

You don't fit in anyone's categories.



Which is what I was saying to rla about evolution ....

We are NOT all heading in the same direction or to the same place ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 22 2009, 08:48 PM) *
Don't worry about it Liv, you're not part of it.

You don't fit in anyone's categories.

And I consider that to be a positive thing, heart ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Oct 22 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Not so different.

Your experiences may make you develop separately and distinctly, but the core of your being is relatively the same:

billfmsd ....

WHERE, or in what plane, do you think "the core of my being" lies?

Is "the core of my being" physical?

Or is it located somewhere else?

In which case, how could you isolate it to measure and weigh it for categorization?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Oct 22 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Not so different.

Your experiences may make you develop separately and distinctly, but the core of your being is relatively the same:

billfmsd ....

WHERE is my mind?

Is it locked up inside my brain?

Or does it reside elsewhere?

And so ...
Livyjr
Must I have a brain to have a mind?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 22 2009, 10:43 PM) *
It's okay, though; we don't need honey in our land of milk and honey; we can manufacture high fructose corn syrup and feel them cows some of that growth hormone....

It's even more simple than that ...

SOYLENT GREEN, Magmak1 ....

The raw materials to make it are all around you ....

And they are quite cheap, actually ...

SOYLENT GREEN!

It is the cure for the future .....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 06:03 AM) *
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 22 2009, 10:43 PM) *
It's okay, though; we don't need honey in our land of milk and honey; we can manufacture high fructose corn syrup and feel them cows some of that growth hormone....

It's even more simple than that ...

SOYLENT GREEN, Magmak1 ....

The raw materials to make it are all around you ....

And they are quite cheap, actually ...

SOYLENT GREEN!

It is the cure for the future .....

And so ...


Any ole myth'l doyoua...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 05:58 AM) *
Must I have a brain to have a mind?


You must have a brain to have a mind of your own...you've already joined the collective mind and you can't resign...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 05:57 AM) *
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Oct 22 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Not so different.

Your experiences may make you develop separately and distinctly, but the core of your being is relatively the same:

billfmsd ....

WHERE is my mind?

Is it locked up inside my brain?

Or does it reside elsewhere?

And so ...


At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...the brain/environment interaction where environment includes the material universe
and culture...

Mind
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 22 2009, 04:06 PM) *
I would say, rla, that myths are within us and connect us with a past that can teach us about ourselves ......

Empirical observations are concerned with what is going on around us and are temporal and transient .......

And so ...


Yes, we have within us what was genetically encoded from the collective gene pool, what was imprinted during the neonate stage and our first few hours after birth, what we have learned at
different levels of maturation--limited only by how well we learn to retrive it...

Empirical observation includes both our informal experience and through the systematic structure/
processes of the arts and sciences...

For each individual organism and each culture, this is an on-going iterative process from conception
to death...My guess is that the human social system within which this narrative occurs, models the
larger reality of the human social system relative to the known solar system, etc.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 05:44 AM) *
Any ole myth'l doyoua...

I don't believe that I have any myths, rla ....

Perhaps I am one ....

But I don't have any ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Oct 22 2009, 06:26 PM) *
Henry Markram is director of Blue Brain, a supercomputing project that can model components of the mammalian brain to precise cellular detail:

AND?
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 05:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 05:58 AM) *

Must I have a brain to have a mind?

You must have a brain to have a mind of your own...


I frankly do not believe that, rla ...

I know people who have had parts of their brains removed and they have quite fine minds ....

Maybe better minds than those who are allegedly whole-brained ...

And you have absolutely no way of proving your thesis as so, that to have a mind, you must first have a brain ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 06:01 AM) *
At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...

At an even simpler level of explanation, the brain is the organ that the mind plays its various tunes on ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 06:01 AM) *
At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...

If that were truly so, rla, you could never time travel while listening to Orion chewing hay ....

And so ...

Livyjr
JE PENSE ....

Therefore, I don't kill people ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 05:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 05:58 AM) *

Must I have a brain to have a mind?

You must have a brain to have a mind of your own...


If you didn't have a body, rla, you could still have a mind ...

You just wouldn't be readily able to express yourself very well ....

Or to make known who you really were ...

And so ...
Livyjr
When I sink my chi to my dan tian, where is it really going to?
heart
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 02:51 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 06:01 AM) *
At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...

At an even simpler level of explanation, the brain is the organ that the mind plays its various tunes on ....

And so ...


That's the side I come down on, the mind uses the brain, not the other way around. I can't prove it, but neither can it be disproven.
Livyjr
QUOTE(heart @ Oct 23 2009, 04:22 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 02:51 PM) *

QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 06:01 AM) *

At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...

At an even simpler level of explanation, the brain is the organ that the mind plays its various tunes on ....

And so ...



That's the side I come down on, the mind uses the brain, not the other way around.

I can't prove it, but neither can it be disproven.



Soo ....

COMMON GROUND, heart ....

And so ....
Livyjr
THE NEW YORK TIMES

"Complex and Hidden Brain in Gut Makes Stomachaches and Butterflies"


By SANDRA BLAKESLEE

Published: January 23, 1996

EVER wonder why people get "butterflies" in the stomach before going on stage?

Or why an impending job interview can cause an attack of intestinal cramps?

And why antidepressants targeted for the brain cause nausea or abdominal upset in millions of people who take such drugs?

The reason for these common experiences, scientists say, is that the body has two brains -- the familiar one encased in the skull and a lesser known but vitally important one found in the human gut.

Like Siamese twins, the two brains are interconnected; when one gets upset, the other does, too.

The gut's brain, known as the enteric nervous system, is located in sheaths of tissue lining the esophagus, stomach, small intestine and colon.

Considered a single entity, it is a network of neurons, neurotransmitters and proteins that zap messages between neurons, support cells like those found in the brain proper and a complex circuitry that enables it to act independently, learn, remember and, as the saying goes, produce gut feelings.


The brain in the gut plays a major role in human happiness and misery.

But few people know it exists, said Dr. Michael Gershon, a professor of anatomy and cell biology at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York.

For years, people who had ulcers, problems swallowing or chronic abdominal pain were told that their problems were imaginary, emotional, simply all in their heads, Dr. Gershon said.

They were shuttled to psychiatrists for treatment.

Doctors were right in ascribing these problems to the brain, Dr. Gershon said, but they blamed the wrong one.

Many gastrointestinal disorders like colitis and irritable bowel syndrome originate from problems within the gut's brain, he said.

And the current wisdom is that most ulcers are caused by a bacterium, not by hidden anger at one's mother.

Symptoms stemming from the two brains get confused, Dr. Gershon said.

"Just as the brain can upset the gut, the gut can also upset the brain" he said.

"If you were chained to the toilet with cramps, you'd be upset, too."

Details of how the enteric nervous system mirrors the central nervous system have been emerging in recent years, said Dr. Gershon, who is considered one of the founders of a new field of medicine called neurogastroenterology.

Nearly every substance that helps run and control the brain has turned up in the gut, Dr. Gershon said.

Major neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, glutamate, norepinephrine and nitric oxide are there.

Two dozen small brain proteins, called neuropeptides, are in the gut, as are major cells of the immune system.

Enkephalins, one class of the body's natural opiates, are in the gut.

And in a finding that stumps researchers, the gut is a rich source of benzodiazepines -- the family of psychoactive chemicals that includes such ever popular drugs as Valium and Xanax.


In evolutionary terms, it makes sense that the body has two brains, said Dr. David Wingate, a professor of gastrointestinal science at the University of London and a consultant at Royal London Hospital.

The first nervous systems were in tubular animals that stuck to rocks and waited for food to pass by, Dr. Wingate said.

The limbic system is often referred to as the "reptile brain."

As life evolved, animals needed a more complex brain for finding food and sex and so developed a central nervous system.

But the gut's nervous system was too important to put inside the newborn head with long connections going down to the body, Dr. Wingate said.

Offspring need to eat and digest food at birth.

Therefore, nature seems to have preserved the enteric nervous system as an independent circuit inside higher animals.


It is only loosely connected to the central nervous system and can mostly function alone, without instructions from topside.

This is indeed the picture seen by developmental biologists.

A clump of tissue called the neural crest forms early in embryogenesis, Dr. Gershon said.

One section turns into the central nervous system.

Another piece migrates to become the enteric nervous system.

Only later are the two nervous systems connected via a cable called the vagus nerve.


Until relatively recently, people thought that the gut's muscles and sensory nerves were wired directly to the brain and that the brain controlled the gut through two pathways that increased or decreased rates of activity, Dr. Wingate said.

The gut was simply a tube with simple reflexes.

Trouble is, no one bothered to count the nerve fibers in the gut.

When they did, he said, they were surprised to find that the gut contains 100 million neurons -- more than the spinal cord has.

Yet the vagus nerve only sends a couple of thousand nerve fibers to the gut.


The brain sends signals to the gut by talking to a small number of "command neurons," which in turn send signals to gut interneurons that carry messages up and down the pike, Dr. Gershon said.

Both command neurons and interneurons are spread throughout two layers of gut tissue called the myenteric plexus and the submuscosal plexus.

("Solar plexus" is actually a boxing term that refers simply to nerves in the abdomen.)

Command neurons control the pattern of activity in the gut, Dr. Gershon said.

The vagus nerve only alters the volume by changing its rates of firing.

The plexuses also contain glial cells that nourish neurons, mast cells involved in immune responses, and a "blood brain barrier" that keeps harmful substances away from important neurons, Dr. Gershon said.

They have sensors for sugar, protein, acidity and other chemical factors that might monitor the progress of digestion, determining how the gut mixes and propels its contents.

"It's not a simple pathway," he said.

"It uses complex integrated circuits not unlike those found in the brain."

The gut's brain and the head's brain act the same way when they are deprived of input from the outside world, Dr. Wingate said.


During sleep, the head's brain produces 90-minute cycles of slow wave sleep punctuated by periods of rapid eye movement sleep in which dreams occur.

During the night, when it has no food, the gut's brain produces 90-minute cycles of slow wave muscle contractions punctuated by short bursts of rapid muscle movements, Dr. Wingate said.

The two brains may influence each other while in this state, Dr. Wingate said.

Patients with bowel problems have been shown to have abnormal rem sleep.

This finding is not inconsistent with the folk wisdom that indigestion can produce nightmare.

As light is shed on the circuitry between the two brains, researchers are beginning to understand why people act and feel the way they do.

When the central brain encounters a frightening situation, it releases stress hormones that prepare the body to fight or flee, Dr. Gershon said.

The stomach contains many sensory nerves that are stimulated by this chemical surge -- hence the "butterflies."


On the battlefield, the higher brain tells the gut brain to shut down, Dr. Gershon said.

"A frightened, running animal does not stop to defecate," he said.

Fear also causes the vagus nerve to "turn up the volume" on serotonin circuits in the gut, Dr. Gershon said.

Thus overstimulated, the gut goes into higher gear and diarrhea results.

Similarly, people sometimes "choke" with emotion.

When nerves in the esophagus are highly stimulated, people have trouble swallowing.

Even the so-called "Maalox moment" of advertising fame can be explained by the two brains interacting, said Dr. Jackie D. Wood, chairman of the department of physiology at Ohio State University in Columbus.

Stress signals from the head's brain can alter nerve function between the stomach and esophagus, resulting in heartburn.

In cases of extreme stress, Dr. Wood said, the higher brain seems to protect the gut by sending signals to immunological mast cells in the plexus.

The mast cells secrete histamine, prostaglandin and other agents that help produce inflammation, he said.

"]This is protective."

"If an animal is in danger and subject to trauma, dirty stuff in the intestines is only a few cells away from the rest of the body."

"By inflaming the gut, the brain is priming the gut for surveillance."

"If the barrier breaks, the gut is ready to do repairs," Dr. Wood said.


Unfortunately, the chemicals that get released also cause diarrhea and cramping.

Such cross talk also explains many drug interactions, Dr. Gershon said.

"When you make a drug to have psychic effects on the brain, it's very likely to have an effect on the gut that you didn't think about," he said.

Conversely, drugs developed for the brain could have uses in the gut.

For example, the gut is loaded with the neurotransmitter serotonin.

When pressure receptors in the gut's lining are stimulated, serotonin is released and starts the reflexive motion of peristalsis, Dr. Gershon said.

Now a quarter of people taking Prozac or similar antidepressants have gastrointestinal problems like nausea, diarrhea and constipation, he said.

These drugs act on serotonin, preventing its uptake by target cells so that it remains more abundant in the central nervous system.

In a study to be published soon, Dr. Gershon and his colleagues explain Prozac's side effects on the gut.

They mounted a section of guinea pig colon on a stand and put a small pellet in the "mouth" end.

The isolated colon whips the pellet down to the "anal" end of the column, just as it would inside an animal, Dr. Gershon said.

When the researchers put a small amount of Prozac into the colon, the pellet "went into high gear," Dr. Gerhson said.

The drug doubled the speed at which the pellet passed through the colon, which would explain why some people get diarrhea.

Prozac has been used in small doses to treat chronic constipation, he said.

But when researchers increased the amount of Prozac in the guinea pig colon, the pellet stopped moving.

The colon froze up, Dr. Gershon said, which is why some people get constipated on the drug.

And because Prozac stimulated sensory nerves, he said, it can also cause nausea.

Some antibiotics like erythromycin act on gut receptors to produce oscillations, Dr. Gershon said.

People experience cramps and nausea.

Drugs like morphine and heroin attach to the gut's opiate receptors, producing constipation.

Indeed, both brains can be addicted to opiates.

Victims of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases suffer from constipation.

The nerves in their gut are as sick as the nerve cells in their brains.


Just as the central brain affects the gut, the gut's brain can talk back to the head, Dr. Gershon said.

Most of the gut sensations that enter conscious awareness are negative things like pain and bloatedness, Dr. Wingate said.

People do not expect to feel anything good from the gut but that does not mean such signals are absent, he said.

Hence, the intriguing question: why does the human gut produce benzodiazepine?

The human brain contains receptors for benzodiazepine, a drug that relieves anxiety, suggesting that the body produces its own internal source of the drug, said Dr. Anthony Basile, a neurochemist in the Neuroscience Laboratory at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Md.

Several years ago, he said, an Italian scientist made a startling discovery.

Patients with liver failure fall into a deep coma.

The coma can be reversed, in minutes, by giving the patient a drug that blocks benzodiazepine.

When the liver fails, substances usually broken down by the liver get to the brain, Dr. Basile said.


Some are bad, like ammonia and mercaptans, which are "smelly compounds that skunks spray on you," he said.

But a series of compounds are also identical to benzodiazepine.

"We don't know if they come from gut itself, from bacteria in the gut or from food," Dr. Basile said.

But when the liver fails, the gut's benzodiazepine goes straight to the brain, knocking the patient unconscious.

The payoff for exploring gut and head brain interactions is enormous, Dr. Wood said.

For example, many people are allergic to certain foods, like shellfish.

This is because mast cells in the gut mysteriously become sensitized to antigens in the food.

The next time the antigen shows up in the gut, Dr. Wood said, the mast cells call up a program, releasing chemical modulators that try to eliminate the threat.

The allergic person gets diarrhea and cramps, he said.

Many autoimmune diseases like Krohn's disease and ulcerative colitis may involve the gut's brain, Dr. Wood said.

The consequences can be horrible, as in Chagas disease, which is caused by a parasite found in South America.

Those infected develop an autoimmune response to neurons in their gut, Dr. Wood said.

Their immune systems slowly destroy their own gut neurons.

When enough neurons die, the intestines literally explode.

A big question remains.

Can the gut's brain learn?

Does it "think" for itself?


Dr. Gershon tells a story about an old Army sergeant, a male nurse in charge of a group of paraplegics.

With their lower spinal cords destroyed, the patients would get impacted.

"The sergeant was anal compulsive," Dr. Gershon said.

"At 10 A.M. everyday, the patients got enemas."

"Then the sergeant was rotated off the ward."

"His replacement decided to give enemas only after compactions occurred."

"But at 10 the next morning, everyone on the ward had a bowel movement at the same time, without enemas," Dr. Gershon said.

Had the sergeant trained those colons?

The human gut has long been seen as a repository of good and bad feelings.

Perhaps emotional states from the head's brain are mirrored in the gut's brain, where they are felt by those who pay attention to them.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...752C0A960958260
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Oct 23 2009, 01:53 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 23 2009, 06:01 AM) *
At the simplist level of explanation, Mind (of a given human orgainism) is the structure/process function of Brain...

If that were truly so, rla, you could never time travel while listening to Orion chewing hay ....

And so ...


Livyjr, I don't understand how you would conclude that. On a few occassions I have experienced,
"Out of body travel" and that didn't change my, "Mind" about the brain-mind relation...
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