Full Version: The biggest threat to the United States?
No more beating around the Bush. Extreme opinions welcome.
The ignorance of the American public due to their laziness to be well informed about their own country and the world. The American people, in general, have become soft and greedy and egocentric.
I voted for Global Corps, working for maximum gain. But it's not that totally. There is a conglomerate of Big Business Interests/ military/ Religious Extremists, and The Top Republican Leadership.
I believe it goes even deeper. I look at the "Black Budgets" that have been at about 30 Billion a year for a long time. I believe some of this unaccountable money has been used to enrich perennial insiders who are into some very dark and secret things totally out of sight of our representatives.
Those dark things; If I told you what I really think, and have researched, you would not believe me and I would be ridiculed far more than you ever were Bill! But I think there is substantial evidence for secret power being wielded that makes our democracy a cruel joke on us all!
I know.
I believe it goes even deeper. I look at the "Black Budgets" that have been at about 30 Billion a year for a long time. I believe some of this unaccountable money has been used to enrich perennial insiders who are into some very dark and secret things totally out of sight of our representatives.
Those dark things; If I told you what I really think, and have researched, you would not believe me and I would be ridiculed far more than you ever were Bill! But I think there is substantial evidence for secret power being wielded that makes our democracy a cruel joke on us all!
I know.
A generalized resistance to learning among a very large majority of the
population.
population.
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 05:09 PM)
The ignorance of the American public due to their laziness to be well informed about their own country and the world. The American people, in general, have become soft and greedy and egocentric.
The ignorance can only manifest itself in our politics. How would that ignorance be reflected in the people we vote for? Would that cause us to elect more corrupt politicians or more stupid politicians?
stupid politicians.
otoh, were they WISE...
seriously, one would think you'd have to be a certified idiot to do something as stupid as to invade iraq...
otoh, were they WISE...
seriously, one would think you'd have to be a certified idiot to do something as stupid as to invade iraq...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 13 2005, 05:15 PM)
A generalized resistance to learning among a very large majority of the
population.
Same question to you:population.
Generalized resistance to learning can only manifest itself in our politics. How would that be reflected in the people we vote for? Would that cause us to elect more corrupt politicians or more stupid politicians?
How what you have chosen to answer affects what politicians we vote for is anti-climatic, and self-evident. The system rewards those with money to "buy" more "democracy" than those without access to that money. Those who get appointed to the courts (who interpret our Constitution) are picked from among those self-interested groups of wealthy insiders.
It varies in that people vary. Right now even though the Democrats are also on the take out of necessity, many of them are rankeling under that "bit" in their mouths. The Republicans on the other hand (at the very least the Leadership), have wholeheartedly embraced those moneied interests.
But you didn't address my post, which I think is behind those moneied interests. They are into POWER, and they believe they are "qualified" to rule all. This is the REAL threat to the United States as we know it. All else that is plainly visible is largely a smokescreen!
It varies in that people vary. Right now even though the Democrats are also on the take out of necessity, many of them are rankeling under that "bit" in their mouths. The Republicans on the other hand (at the very least the Leadership), have wholeheartedly embraced those moneied interests.
But you didn't address my post, which I think is behind those moneied interests. They are into POWER, and they believe they are "qualified" to rule all. This is the REAL threat to the United States as we know it. All else that is plainly visible is largely a smokescreen!
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 05:49 PM)
But you didn't address my post, which I think is behind those moneied interests. They are into POWER, and they believe they are "qualified" to rule all. This is the REAL threat to the United States as we know it. All else that is plainly visible is largely a smokescreen!
I didn't address your post because I agree with it the most so far. I was waiting to see if there were any counter points before I threw in my opinion.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 05:14 PM)
I voted for Global Corps, working for maximum gain. But it's not that totally. There is a conglomerate of Big Business Interests/ military/ Religious Extremists, and The Top Republican Leadership.
Exactly!
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 07:18 PM)
The ignorance can only manifest itself in our politics. How would that ignorance be reflected in the people we vote for? Would that cause us to elect more corrupt politicians or more stupid politicians?
The ignorance manifests itself is many arenas, Bill. But since this is a political forum, I would say that ignorance of issues, other cultures, repercussions of policy (you get my drift), causes us to elect both more corrupt and less intelligent politicians.
Ignorance is not bliss when applied to threats- internal or external.
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 06:34 PM)
The ignorance manifests itself is many arenas, Bill. But since this is a political forum, I would say that ignorance of issues, other cultures, repercussions of policy (you get my drift), causes us to elect both more corrupt and less intelligent politicians.
Ignorance is not bliss when applied to threats- internal or external.
Which is worse, the stupidity or the corruption?
Ignorance is not bliss when applied to threats- internal or external.
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 08:38 PM)
Which is worse, the stupidity or the corruption?
Gosh, Bill, I had a long day today. You are challenging me too much.
The stupidity allows the corruption to grow. So, probably the stupidity ?
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 06:44 PM)
Gosh, Bill, I had a long day today. You are challenging me too much.
The stupidity allows the corruption to grow. So, probably the stupidity ?
Sorry The stupidity allows the corruption to grow. So, probably the stupidity ?
I'm just trying to get at the biggest threat and how to break the cycle. Stupidity from resistance to education and ignorance elects both corrupt and stupid politicians, who then dumb us down and hide the facts.
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 08:52 PM)
Sorry
I'm just trying to get at the biggest threat and how to break the cycle. Stupidity from resistance to education and ignorance elects both corrupt and stupid politicians, who then dumb us down and hide the facts.
I'm just trying to get at the biggest threat and how to break the cycle. Stupidity from resistance to education and ignorance elects both corrupt and stupid politicians, who then dumb us down and hide the facts.
Well, said !
I do think ignorance in the form of lack of education (not necessary formal education, but the desire/ability of the people to become aware of the basic who/what/where/why) becomes a vicious cycle to break.
How to break such a cycle- wow, that is a tall order... which brings us back to education of the masses. And that opens a whole pandora's box of hows...
back in your court
edit to add: when to the "w" list above
The biggest threat to the survival of the US is the highly malignant cancer in our midst called BushCo - the Military Industrial Complex/oil men/theocrats/MSM - catapulted to their current social, economic, military, and religious monopoly in America by Rove's genius and their own willingness to do whatever it takes to control everything and win everything.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us we can't count on our government to protect us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us we can't count on our government to protect us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
bush and cheney
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Jul 13 2005, 06:56 PM)
The biggest threat to the survival of the US is the highly malignant cancer in our midst called BushCo - the Military Industrial Complex/oil men/theocrats/MSM - catapulted to their current social, economic, military, and religious monopoly in America by Rove's genius and their own willingness to do whatever it takes to control everything and win everything.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado or West Virginia or wherever they are to survive no matter what.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us they think nothing of us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado or West Virginia or wherever they are to survive no matter what.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us they think nothing of us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
HERE, HERE Gabrielle! Thank you for that wonderful insightful and totally accurate post. You've said it better than I've ever heard it said!
Once again, Gabrielle,
you speak so well for US and just as TRoU says, I would not change a word.
Thank you for seeing so clearly and sharing your clarity with us.
- thank you
you speak so well for US and just as TRoU says, I would not change a word.
Thank you for seeing so clearly and sharing your clarity with us.
- thank you
Absolutely agree, Gabrielle and TroU. But how did we elect "THEM/THEY" and how do we prevent it from happening again ?
As Bill points out, how does the American public become re-engaged in an intelligent fashion so that history does not just repeat itself ? How do we break the cycle that has dumbed down the masses, which has prevented us from being all that we can be, and have been ?
As Bill points out, how does the American public become re-engaged in an intelligent fashion so that history does not just repeat itself ? How do we break the cycle that has dumbed down the masses, which has prevented us from being all that we can be, and have been ?
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 07:15 PM)
Absolutely agree, Gabrielle and TroU. But how did we elect "THEM/THEY" and how do we prevent it from happening again ?
As Bill points out, how does the American public become re-engaged in an intelligent fashion so that history does not just repeat itself ? How do we break the cycle that has dumbed down the masses, which has prevented us from being all that we can be, and have been ?
As Bill points out, how does the American public become re-engaged in an intelligent fashion so that history does not just repeat itself ? How do we break the cycle that has dumbed down the masses, which has prevented us from being all that we can be, and have been ?
Rather than retype what I said in a previous thread, I'll just repost it;
If there is an answer to the possibility of secret corruption at the top,it's not rank speculation with the wildest accusations thrown out there.
The only answer we as ordinary citizens have is to quietly (as possible) and determidly(is this a word?) take back our Republic from unaccountable corrupt interests. This, if possible at all, will take a long time. But we can start by electing those whom we vett for honesty, and then hold them to account. Eventually if we remain vigilent, we will have non-corrupt leaders who will appoint non-corrupt Justices; then rulings that revive the moribund Constitution will open the dark corrodors of hidden power and shed light there.
This is generational in scope. Nothing is to be served by the wildest accusations right now except loss of credibility.
This is why even I won't say at this time how deep the corruption goes, because nothing is to be served by it right now. We can't reach it from here so we have to start from here, and climb to true liberty for all.
Gabrielle has said what needs to be said better than I!
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 08:15 PM)
How does the American public become re-engaged in an intelligent fashion so that history does not just repeat itself ? How do we break the cycle that has dumbed down the masses, which has prevented us from being all that we can be, and have been ?
My best guess is to take back the media.
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 07:39 PM)
My best guess is to take back the media.
Why did I think you were gonna say that?
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Jul 13 2005, 09:56 PM)
The biggest threat to the survival of the US is the highly malignant cancer in our midst called BushCo - the Military Industrial Complex/oil men/theocrats/MSM - catapulted to their current social, economic, military, and religious monopoly in America by Rove's genius and their own willingness to do whatever it takes to control everything and win everything.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us we can't count on our government to protect us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
The American people can survive another Great Depression. We can survive if the terrorists attack us with nuclear and/or biological/chemical weapons. We can survive a generation of poorly educated kids, we can survive having our jobs shipped overseas, we can survive the trade deficit, we can survive a global pandemic, we can survive stolen elections, we can survive a few stupid/corrupt politicans, we can survive for a while without a free press.
We can survive all these things because we are a tenacious, resilient, hardworking, curious, hopeful nation. We have risen from the ashes before and we flourished. I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it again.
What we might not be able to survive are a group of men who own everything, control everything, run everything, dumb us down, steal our money, scare us to death, cause people to hate us all over the world, allow us to be attacked for their own personal gain sowing mistrust of all elected authority figures in their wake while they build their little extra-governmental fortresses in Colorado.
And the reason we can't survive this is because it alienates us from who we are as a people. It tells us we are evil when we see photographs of ourselves torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib. It tells us we are stupid and there is nothing meaningful worth working for when they dumb us down with reality shows and empty consumerism. It tells us we're not good enough when they send our jobs overseas without retraining us to do something nobody else in the rest of the world can do. It tells us we're not worth anything when they take our healthcare and our retirement funds. It tells us we can't count on our government to protect us when they allow us to be bombed by ignoring all the intelligence warnings. It tells us we have no control over our government and breaks our belief in democracy itself when they rig and steal election after election. It tells us we are spiritually vacuous when they decide who God is and how God is defined. It tells us we have no control over our bodies when they deny us the right to choose and the life-saving medical treatments offered by stem-cell research. It tells us we are merely slaves when our children are sent in backdoor drafts to die for their profits.
People who see themselves as evil, stupid, worhtless consumers don't invent microchips, automobiles, and airplanes. The reason why America has been so great in the past is because we told ourselves we were the inventors, the creators of our own destiny - and we were. We were the people you could count on in a crunch. We held our heads high. Now they are the creators of our destiny. And they are sucking the very life force out of every single one of us.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 08:42 PM)
Why did I think you were gonna say that?
Ok- a good start. But how do we do that ?
While it is true that taking back the Media IS key. We are talking about a huge Corporate Infastructure that has consolodated with the help of corrupt rulings by the bought and sold FCC, and the Courts. While Federal law makes the airwaves the property of the Public, it has been co-opted by monied interests who use it as a tool to keep us uninformed about their doings. The Internet is a Bright Spot for now. But you can be sure they are working on co-opting this too.
In light of this Bill, how do you propose we "take back the Media" (I'm probably going to be sorry I asked)
Please in Americanized English, and using small words, so my small brain can comprhend.
In light of this Bill, how do you propose we "take back the Media" (I'm probably going to be sorry I asked)
Please in Americanized English, and using small words, so my small brain can comprhend.
QUOTE(shawneedaughter @ Jul 13 2005, 07:58 PM)
bush and cheney
They may be the worst, but I have a hard time accepting that they did this much damage on their own. There's something wrong with this country if so few people can do so much damage. I agree with Gabrielle that we may no be able to survive this kind of damage. But it takes a lot more than just a couple of corrupt politicians to do this kind of damage.
Well, we all know about PNAC, et al. No secret there. Assuming that there is a "vast right wing conspiracy" (sorry, I could not resist the phrase), how do we combat it ?
If the first step is to take control of media, how do we do that ? Or, perhaps, is the media coming back to its senses with the current feeding frenzy going on over the Rove/Plame/Miller
debacle ?
If the first step is to take control of media, how do we do that ? Or, perhaps, is the media coming back to its senses with the current feeding frenzy going on over the Rove/Plame/Miller
debacle ?
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 08:51 PM)
While it is true that taking back the Media IS key. We are talking about a huge Corporate Infastructure that has consolodated with the help of corrupt rulings by the bought and sold FCC, and the Courts. While Federal law makes the airwaves the property of the Public, it has been co-opted by monied interests who use it as a tool to keep us uninformed about their doings. The Internet is a Bright Spot for now. But you can be sure they are working on co-opting this too.
In light of this Bill, how do you propose we "take back the Media" (I'm probably going to be sorry I asked)
Please in Americanized English, and using small words, so my small brain can comprhend.
I tend to agree with you that Global Mega Corporations are the biggest threat for the reasons you've stated, especially their effects on media. In light of this Bill, how do you propose we "take back the Media" (I'm probably going to be sorry I asked)
Please in Americanized English, and using small words, so my small brain can comprhend.
I think the first step in taking back the media is subscribe to or create media outlets with no ties to global corporations. Then use those media outlets to educate people in the dangers of corporate corruption of media. But it must be:
1) Mostly Volunteer Effort
2) Highly Entertaining
3) Highly Informative
4) Highly Credible
5) Distributed via the internet and other low cost channels
There also needs to be a better alliance between entertainers and educators in this country.
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:04 PM)
Well, we all know about PNAC, et al. No secret there. Assuming that there is a "vast right wing conspiracy" (sorry, I could not resist the phrase), how do we combat it ?
If the first step is to take control of media, how do we do that ? Or, perhaps, is the media coming back to its senses with the current feeding frenzy going on over the Rove/Plame/Miller
debacle ?
When I talk about the Media, I'm using the broader sense of the word. If the first step is to take control of media, how do we do that ? Or, perhaps, is the media coming back to its senses with the current feeding frenzy going on over the Rove/Plame/Miller
debacle ?
As for the News Media in particular, they are a bunch of whores now, but if we stop subscribing to them, they will change. But it's not enough to just stop subscribing. We have to compete with them and offer the public a better alternative.
Okay. Off to a start here with some specifics. Let me play devil's advocate here for a post......
volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
entertaining and informative is doable, given that good talent can be found (such as teachers & entertainers)
credibility is very difficult to establish
the internet is not widespread enough to encompass a large number of economically disadvantaged voters and too diverse to get those who are wired in to focus on one message
- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
elaborate on how an alliance of teachers and entertainers would be helpful, other than what I pointed out above
we need a tennis emoticon, golf is Republican game
back to you, Bill
volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
entertaining and informative is doable, given that good talent can be found (such as teachers & entertainers)
credibility is very difficult to establish
the internet is not widespread enough to encompass a large number of economically disadvantaged voters and too diverse to get those who are wired in to focus on one message
- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
elaborate on how an alliance of teachers and entertainers would be helpful, other than what I pointed out above
we need a tennis emoticon, golf is Republican game
back to you, Bill
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 08:17 PM)
Okay. Off to a start here with some specifics. Let me play devil's advocate here for a post......
volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
entertaining and informative is doable, given that good talent can be found (such as teachers & entertainers)
credibility is very difficult to establish
the internet is not widespread enough to encompass a large number of economically disadvantaged voters and too diverse to get those who are wired in to focus on one message
- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
elaborate on how an alliance of teachers and entertainers would be helpful, other than what I pointed out above
we need a tennis emoticon, golf is Republican game
back to you, Bill
volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
entertaining and informative is doable, given that good talent can be found (such as teachers & entertainers)
credibility is very difficult to establish
the internet is not widespread enough to encompass a large number of economically disadvantaged voters and too diverse to get those who are wired in to focus on one message
- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
elaborate on how an alliance of teachers and entertainers would be helpful, other than what I pointed out above
we need a tennis emoticon, golf is Republican game
back to you, Bill
Yeah what she said. But be specific. And something hasn't been mentioned that is key. Who will organize this, and there needs to be much money even for a modest effort with volunteers. People like Soros and very wealthy Liberals and people who believe in Liberty need to organize to move things at higher levels. The Law must also be on our side and right now that is NOT the case. The Bandwidth requirements for TV and radio must be taken in to consideration so TV and Radio stations with licenses must be BOUGHT.
So I see this as a grassroots movement you are talking about and they need to get "marching orders" from those who will organize the overall effort.
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
Okay. Off to a start here with some specifics. Let me play devil's advocate here for a post......
volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
Start with the victims. There worse things get, the more victims are created by the system. Use those victims to channel there bitterness and free time to write for the Media. It doesn't always have to be investigative reporting. It can be commentary or hidden commentary in the form of entertainment fiction.volunteer effort: Where would a large enough number of volunteers be found ? There seems to be shortage of volunteers for just about everything in this current selfish/or survival climate
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
entertaining and informative is doable, given that good talent can be found (such as teachers & entertainers)
It's definitely getting easier to be talented. We have plenty of user-friendly software and tools for creating media. We have plenty of inspiration and material to write about as well. We just need more people to be outraged about the status quo.QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
credibility is very difficult to establish
Anyone can be credible as long as they are persistent and correct. The credibility is earned over time and is only threatened when the author lies or is misinformed. The opposition will put out misinformation, but that can be combatted with good ol' fashioned research.QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
the internet is not widespread enough to encompass a large number of economically disadvantaged voters and too diverse to get those who are wired in to focus on one message
- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
Internet subscriptions will pickup with better internet publications. There was a time when many people didn't watch TV until David Sarnoff made sure TV shows got better. The same can be done on the internet. The more popular free media outlets can also be used to drive people to the internet.- however, coupled with free TV outlets, it might begin to saturate the populace
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
laborate on how an alliance of teachers and entertainers would be helpful, other than what I pointed out above
Teachers (including philosophers and scientists) know better what needs to be taught but are not very good entertainers. Entertainers know how to entertain but don't know what needs to be taught. That is why entertainment is filled with Junk and teachers are rarely heard. This is mainly due to a lack of mutual respect between the two entities. If there were more mutual respect, we would see more, better educational programming and less FOX.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 09:34 PM)
Yeah what she said. But be specific. And something hasn't been mentioned that is key. Who will organize this, and there needs to be much money even for a modest effort with volunteers. People like Soros and very wealthy Liberals and people who believe in Liberty need to organize to move things at higher levels. The Law must also be on our side and right now that is NOT the case. The Bandwidth requirements for TV and radio must be taken in to consideration so TV and Radio stations with licenses must be BOUGHT.
So I see this as a grassroots movement you are talking about and they need to get "marching orders" from those who will organize the overall effort.
You do need money, but if more people were willing, the money would find the talent. Media relies on subscription, and subscription relies on talent more than money. And as we see, money doesn't buy talent as easily as the funders expect.So I see this as a grassroots movement you are talking about and they need to get "marching orders" from those who will organize the overall effort.
I agree that we need people like Soros. But we need the talent just as much if not more. People like Soros will fund the talent if the talent is a noble cause.
Then you need to put together a pilot demonstration project where you combine some of the elements you are talking about. In a way Progressive Talk Radio is the begining of this or could be built upon to move in this direction.
But if an agenda is behind this move (and it would have to be) It will be discovered and fought if seen as "Left Wing"! It will be fought by the "Right Wing". If you could avoid that fight you could use PBS. But as you may know PBS is being politicized by Right Wing hacks put in charge!
But if an agenda is behind this move (and it would have to be) It will be discovered and fought if seen as "Left Wing"! It will be fought by the "Right Wing". If you could avoid that fight you could use PBS. But as you may know PBS is being politicized by Right Wing hacks put in charge!
Radical Christians are the biggest threat, the Chinese aren't threatening my civil liberties, it's the Christian Reich and the idiots they vote in to office. Plus I trust Chinese to be much more rational than the rapture whackos.
QUOTE(underbear1 @ Jul 13 2005, 10:33 PM)
Radical Christians are the biggest threat, the Chinese aren't threatening my civil liberties, it's the Christian Reich and the idiots they vote in to office. Plus I trust Chinese to be much more rational than the rapture whackos.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 13 2005, 10:26 PM)
Then you need to put together a pilot demonstration project where you combine some of the elements you are talking about. In a way Progressive Talk Radio is the begining of this or could be built upon to move in this direction.
But if an agenda is behind this move (and it would have to be) It will be discovered and fought if seen as "Left Wing"! It will be fought by the "Right Wing". If you could avoid that fight you could use PBS. But as you may know PBS is being politicized by Right Wing hacks put in charge!
The so-called "Left Wing" agenda includes more self-proclaimed "Right Wingers" than they know. The Neocons have just been more successful in making the moderate Left Wing seem like the extreme Left. This branding of the Left Wing as "too soft" and the Right Wing as being some how "more realistic" is the first myth that needs to be exposed. But if an agenda is behind this move (and it would have to be) It will be discovered and fought if seen as "Left Wing"! It will be fought by the "Right Wing". If you could avoid that fight you could use PBS. But as you may know PBS is being politicized by Right Wing hacks put in charge!
The real enemies of most Left Wingers and at least half of the Right Wingers are the Neocons. We should draw more attention to the Neocons and expose what they don't have in common with the moderate Right Wing.
We should also expose the Global Corporations who sell out this country as being neither Left or Right Wing, but rather the Greed Wing. I don't even consider them American.
After weighing Gabrielle's and TheRestofUs's points (all good), I picked "Corrupt Politicians" as the biggest threat. Global Corporations do more damage and have more power, but politicians enable them. The corporations purchase these politicians, but it wouldn't work if the politicians were not for sale. I don't know why we keep trusting former CEOs to do the right thing in Washington. Maybe we just need to elect more Consumer Advocates and Non-profit Humanitarians.
I voted 'corrupt politicians' but I will now amend it to 'the unthinking masses' because it takes a bit of thinking to figure out who are the corrupt politicians.
This may not be the biggest threat, but it's one that hits closest in my life, TRAITOROUS closet case queers, that the Republican Party seems to have found and endless supply of, and use them to promote some of the most wretched slimey
political tricks, and always at the expense of their own (LGBT) tribe.
I don't know the answer to these folks, but I suggest they don't walk down any dark alleys in a gay ghetto.
political tricks, and always at the expense of their own (LGBT) tribe.
I don't know the answer to these folks, but I suggest they don't walk down any dark alleys in a gay ghetto.
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 11:17 PM)
After weighing Gabrielle's and TheRestofUs's points (all good), I picked "Corrupt Politicians" as the biggest threat. Global Corporations do more damage and have more power, but politicians enable them. The corporations purchase these politicians, but it wouldn't work if the politicians were not for sale. I don't know why we keep trusting former CEOs to do the right thing in Washington. Maybe we just need to elect more Consumer Advocates and Non-profit Humanitarians.
Yea, like Robert Kennedy, Jr. for President.
[quote=billfmsd,Jul 13 2005, 11:49 PM]
Start with the victims. There worse things get, the more victims are created by the system. Use those victims to channel there bitterness and free time to write for the Media. It doesn't always have to be investigative reporting. It can be commentary or hidden commentary in the form of entertainment fiction.[/quote]
Entertainment fiction can indeed be powerful. I remember the great impact that
"All in the Family" had on social consciousness.
It's definitely getting easier to be talented. We have plenty of user-friendly software and tools for creating media. We have plenty of inspiration and material to write about as well. We just need more people to be outraged about the status quo.
I sense that his is beginning to happen already. It just needs reinforcement.
Anyone can be credible as long as they are persistent and correct. The credibility is earned over time and is only threatened when the author lies or is misinformed. The opposition will put out misinformation, but that can be combatted with good ol' fashioned research.
Time is one thing we may not have on our side. But that does not negate the need to try.
Internet subscriptions will pickup with better internet publications. There was a time when many people didn't watch TV until David Sarnoff made sure TV shows got better. The same can be done on the internet. The more popular free media outlets can also be used to drive people to the internet.
Ah, here I do see a problem, that being that the poor or low/moderate income
population cannot afford to be connected to the internet. And I do sometimes wonder if the
current regime (or one like it) will try to keep the price of internet availability out of reach through taxation.
Teachers (including philosophers and scientists) know better what needs to be taught but are not very good entertainers. Entertainers know how to entertain but don't know what needs to be taught. That is why entertainment is filled with Junk and teachers are rarely heard. This is mainly due to a lack of mutual respect between the two entities. If there were more mutual respect, we would see more, better educational programming and less FOX.
[/quote]
This is brilliant !
edit to add: sorry, not sure why Bill's quotes did not come through in quote format- my error. His thoughts in black above; mine responses in purple.
Start with the victims. There worse things get, the more victims are created by the system. Use those victims to channel there bitterness and free time to write for the Media. It doesn't always have to be investigative reporting. It can be commentary or hidden commentary in the form of entertainment fiction.[/quote]
Entertainment fiction can indeed be powerful. I remember the great impact that
"All in the Family" had on social consciousness.
It's definitely getting easier to be talented. We have plenty of user-friendly software and tools for creating media. We have plenty of inspiration and material to write about as well. We just need more people to be outraged about the status quo.
I sense that his is beginning to happen already. It just needs reinforcement.
Anyone can be credible as long as they are persistent and correct. The credibility is earned over time and is only threatened when the author lies or is misinformed. The opposition will put out misinformation, but that can be combatted with good ol' fashioned research.
Time is one thing we may not have on our side. But that does not negate the need to try.
Internet subscriptions will pickup with better internet publications. There was a time when many people didn't watch TV until David Sarnoff made sure TV shows got better. The same can be done on the internet. The more popular free media outlets can also be used to drive people to the internet.
Ah, here I do see a problem, that being that the poor or low/moderate income
population cannot afford to be connected to the internet. And I do sometimes wonder if the
current regime (or one like it) will try to keep the price of internet availability out of reach through taxation.
Teachers (including philosophers and scientists) know better what needs to be taught but are not very good entertainers. Entertainers know how to entertain but don't know what needs to be taught. That is why entertainment is filled with Junk and teachers are rarely heard. This is mainly due to a lack of mutual respect between the two entities. If there were more mutual respect, we would see more, better educational programming and less FOX.
[/quote]
This is brilliant !
edit to add: sorry, not sure why Bill's quotes did not come through in quote format- my error. His thoughts in black above; mine responses in purple.
I think what we need is a "Project America" that takes the ideas behind Habbitat for Humanity and Clinton's "common reporting" idea dealing with tsunami aid (ie a common reporting site where anybody from anywhere in the world can find out where money is, where it is needed, what's being done with the $ and how people can help out) and combine and expand them.
Basically Project America would be Americans interactively working via the Internet and then taking their Internet experiences out to the real world to make a difference. It would allow people to pick and choose how they wanted to do it, where they wanted to donate $ and the people working on the ground would be responsible for putting updates on the web so people can know what they're doing. It would be kind of like a real life Sim City interactive experience/Pay-it-Forward show. There could be schools that need help or certain resources. I could scan down, find my state and home town and see they need construction paper in room 1B over at such and such elementary school. If I chose to take on that responsibility, I could go buy the construction paper and take it to the school, donate money so they can buy it themselves, or, if I had a lot of time, go organize the kids in the school to participate in Project America through bake sales or car washes or writing an online children's book that earns advertising dollars. If a community is losing a factory, anyone from the community to the world can learn about their efforts online and help out. People will be responsible for bringing their problems/needs to Project America and getting them noticed through their own creativity and ability to utilize the interactive media to motivate and encourage people. We could use this approach to building a new media, too. If we could get people hooked into interactive action where part of the socialization was to push them to get out and do something we could empower them.
Somehow we need to put the power to change back in people's hands. We could have an Oil Independence part of Project America where people pledge to use alternative energies, are able to fund alternative energy think tanks and NGO's, and see where the country needs help and figure out what they can do personally.
I also like the idea of making 90 days of volunteer service mandatory for high school graduation - kids can complete this requirement over the summers from 4th or 5th grade on. And we could make so many days of volunteer service required for college and graduate level degrees required, too.
Guess what? Project America already exists!
Somehow it's got to be very entertaining. And a little bit psyhologically addictive.
Basically Project America would be Americans interactively working via the Internet and then taking their Internet experiences out to the real world to make a difference. It would allow people to pick and choose how they wanted to do it, where they wanted to donate $ and the people working on the ground would be responsible for putting updates on the web so people can know what they're doing. It would be kind of like a real life Sim City interactive experience/Pay-it-Forward show. There could be schools that need help or certain resources. I could scan down, find my state and home town and see they need construction paper in room 1B over at such and such elementary school. If I chose to take on that responsibility, I could go buy the construction paper and take it to the school, donate money so they can buy it themselves, or, if I had a lot of time, go organize the kids in the school to participate in Project America through bake sales or car washes or writing an online children's book that earns advertising dollars. If a community is losing a factory, anyone from the community to the world can learn about their efforts online and help out. People will be responsible for bringing their problems/needs to Project America and getting them noticed through their own creativity and ability to utilize the interactive media to motivate and encourage people. We could use this approach to building a new media, too. If we could get people hooked into interactive action where part of the socialization was to push them to get out and do something we could empower them.
Somehow we need to put the power to change back in people's hands. We could have an Oil Independence part of Project America where people pledge to use alternative energies, are able to fund alternative energy think tanks and NGO's, and see where the country needs help and figure out what they can do personally.
I also like the idea of making 90 days of volunteer service mandatory for high school graduation - kids can complete this requirement over the summers from 4th or 5th grade on. And we could make so many days of volunteer service required for college and graduate level degrees required, too.
Guess what? Project America already exists!
Somehow it's got to be very entertaining. And a little bit psyhologically addictive.
These are good ideas Gabrielle!
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 14 2005, 02:31 PM)
These are good ideas Gabrielle!
Thanks, TRoU!
I'm in full agreement with Pie and rla.
And Gabrielle continues to amaze me.
She said something that "gets at" the issues Pie and rla have touched upon, which I think are the critical issues if we are to go forward, or even reverse the cycle. Gabrielle said "they have sucked the life force out of us"....
and while I will surely agree that we can find drains all over the place, I think that we need to create educational and cultural systems that counter-act that on both an indiovidual and a collective basis.
I think it was Richard Strozzi Heckler's books (two more of which arrived today... "Being Human at Work" and "Holding the Center: Sancutary in a Time of Confusion") who notes that we have compartmentalized education...
We go to Sunday School for our spiritual training, and we go to Phys Ed classes for body awareness, and we go to a psychologist when we have some kind of mental issue, and we go to a doctor when we feel ill, but our "teachers" by and large aren't allowed to discuss spirituality, and the gym teachers aren't qualified to talk about our lives, and it's a rare TV show that will get deeply into any of this, let alone the unity of it all.
If our psychologists and our psychiatrists are well-schooled in helping us overcome some "pathology", are they not also capable of teaching us all about mental health and well-being, and how to achieve it and maintain it?
Do our teachers ignite in us the desire to keep learning?
I've got to go.... more later.
And Gabrielle continues to amaze me.
She said something that "gets at" the issues Pie and rla have touched upon, which I think are the critical issues if we are to go forward, or even reverse the cycle. Gabrielle said "they have sucked the life force out of us"....
and while I will surely agree that we can find drains all over the place, I think that we need to create educational and cultural systems that counter-act that on both an indiovidual and a collective basis.
I think it was Richard Strozzi Heckler's books (two more of which arrived today... "Being Human at Work" and "Holding the Center: Sancutary in a Time of Confusion") who notes that we have compartmentalized education...
We go to Sunday School for our spiritual training, and we go to Phys Ed classes for body awareness, and we go to a psychologist when we have some kind of mental issue, and we go to a doctor when we feel ill, but our "teachers" by and large aren't allowed to discuss spirituality, and the gym teachers aren't qualified to talk about our lives, and it's a rare TV show that will get deeply into any of this, let alone the unity of it all.
If our psychologists and our psychiatrists are well-schooled in helping us overcome some "pathology", are they not also capable of teaching us all about mental health and well-being, and how to achieve it and maintain it?
Do our teachers ignite in us the desire to keep learning?
I've got to go.... more later.
QUOTE(Pie @ Jul 14 2005, 09:32 AM)
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Jul 13 2005, 09:49 PM)
Internet subscriptions will pickup with better internet publications. There was a time when many people didn't watch TV until David Sarnoff made sure TV shows got better. The same can be done on the internet. The more popular free media outlets can also be used to drive people to the internet.
Ah, here I do see a problem, that being that the poor or low/moderate income population cannot afford to be connected to the internet. And I do sometimes wonder if the current regime (or one like it) will try to keep the price of internet availability out of reach through taxation. I think a lot of the people, who don't think they can afford the internet, can afford it. Many people remember how expensive it use to be, not knowing that things have changed. Some of them get discouraged when they hop over to Best Buy and see the price of new computers, not knowing that the price of used computers drops 3 times faster than the value. The sales clerks aren't going to tell them that they can by a used internet-compatible computer for the price of one months cable TV. The Cable company is not going to tell them that they can get unlimited dial-up internet access for the price of one month's cigarettes. Some of the people who consider themselves dirt poor in America, are paying for booze, smokes and cable TV, are saying they can't afford internet access. All they need to do is kick a few bad habits to get online with the information age.
People treat the internet like a luxury above and beyond cable TV, when its really the other way around. I consider the internet a necessity these days.
I knew that would be your response, Bill. And there is some merit to it, too. Which gets us back to education again- getting word the the masses that they do not have to be left out of the loop.
I also very much like Gabrielle's "Project America" thoughts and am going to check that link out now.
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